Everything End of Life.
This podcast is dedicated to talking to experts and others about all aspects of death and dying. You know, that thing we don't really want to talk about!
As a hospice carer and former psychiatric nurse as well as writer and former Theatre director, I invite guests to talk about their roles in and what to expect in the last four weeks of life. What happens to the person dying, what help is there, what to do before and after the event.
Many of the families we go in to see have one thing in common and that is that they don't know what to expect. I thought that a Podcast may help and then discovered so much to explore that is of interest to people such as alternative funerals, what do Hospices actually do, what role do religions play?
So join me for the first interview as we begin this Podcast with Clinical Nurse Specialist Becky Rix where we grasp the nettle and discuss what happens to us generally in those last four weeks.
Time to explore "Everything End of Life".
Everything End of Life.
Meet the Guardian Angel for Your End-of-Life Planning
Death may be the ultimate truth serum, but most of us avoid discussing it until we absolutely must. In this deeply insightful conversation with professional fiduciary Sarah Eklein, we explore why end-of-life planning isn't just about legal documents—it's about creating what she beautifully calls "a legacy of love, not a mess."
Sarah draws from her unique experience working with clients in their final life chapters to illuminate the tremendous gift of proper planning. As someone who regularly serves as a conservator, trustee, executor, and healthcare decision maker, she witnesses firsthand the stark difference between families who prepare thoughtfully and those who don't. The statistics are sobering: only one in three Americans create an estate plan, leaving countless families to navigate complex decisions during already emotional times.
Our discussion ventures beyond conventional planning into fascinating territory—the emergence of "funerals" (celebrations of life held before death), the evolution of family structures that necessitates new support systems, and the delicate considerations surrounding assisted dying legislation. Throughout it all, Sarah emphasizes that while documents matter, the conversations that precede them matter even more.
What's particularly striking is how focusing on our mortality can actually enrich our living. As Sarah notes, confronting death forces us into the present moment, helping clarify what truly matters. Her approach blends practical expertise with profound compassion, reminding us that comprehensive planning isn't morbid—it's one of the most loving gifts we can offer those we care about.
Whether you're just beginning to consider your own wishes or helping a loved one navigate their final chapter, this conversation offers both the practical guidance and emotional wisdom to approach this universal journey with intention, clarity, and heart. Download Sarah's free Legacy of Love workbook from her website to start crafting your own meaningful plan today.
For those interested in what Palliative care looks like at home there is "The Last Kiss" (Not a Romance)
Available on Amazon now
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Kiss-Romance-Carers-Stories/dp/1919635289/ref=sr_1_1?crid=13D6YWONKR5YH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9._59mNNFoc-rROuWZnAQfsG0l3iseuQuK_gx-VxO_fe6DLJR8M0Az039lJk_HxFcW2o2HMhIH3r3PuD7Dj-D6KTwIHDMl2Q51FGLK8UFYOBwbRmrLMbpYoqOL6I5ruLukF1vq7umXueIASDS2pO91JktkZriJDJzgLfPv1ft5UtkdQxs9isRDmzAYzc5MKKztINcNGBq-GRWKxgvc_OV5iKKvpw0I5d7ZQMWuvGZODlY.fqQgWV-yBiNB5186RxkkWvQYBoEsDbyq-Hai3rU1cwg&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+last+kiss+not+a+romance&qid=1713902566&s=books&sprefix=The+Last+kiss+n%2Cstripbooks%2C107&sr=1-1
Hello and welcome to Everything End-of-Life with me, jason Cottrell and guests, and my guest today is Sarah Ekline, and I think I said that correctly.
Speaker 2:You got it.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, who is a fiduciary? It's not something that we are familiar with in this country, but we have similar people to help end-of-life care with estates and et cetera. But I'm not going to try and explain all of that because I'm not really an expert. The nice thing is about this podcast is somebody said to me once surround yourself with brilliant people and let them do the hard work. So, sarah, do tell us just a brief outline about what a fiduciary's role is, if you wouldn't mind yeah, of course, great question and and most people have it.
Speaker 2:Uh, jason, thanks for having me. I'm I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Yeah, so I know you're both based in the uk and I assume a lot of your listeners are too, so I'll keep it simple, but I'm sure that there's people that do similar work that I do closer to you, but I'm based in the Bay Area San Francisco Bay Area in California and we have this small profession called professional fiduciaries and there's actually a license. I would say there's only about roughly 900 actively licensed fiduciaries in the state, so I'm just sorry, I'm just gonna stop you there, okay.
Speaker 1:No, we're gonna carry on recording. Just it's a weird thing the heating's just come on and it's I don't know why, cuz we're having a heat wave here. So sorry, do you know, and I'll keep that in because you know, I like to edit things, but I like things to be a bit real, so you go you might find a cat you might find a cat wander across from time to time because she's deaf and she doesn't.
Speaker 2:So okay, anyway, please carry on yes, so I describe, uh, the term fiduciary as an umbrella term and under that umbrella I can act as someone's conservator or guardian. In the state of California we use the term conservator to mean a guardian for anyone over the age of 18. For anyone over the age of 18. I can act as someone's trustee, as someone executor, and also as someone's agent under their durable power of attorney for finance and also in the advanced healthcare directive, and be someone's healthcare decision maker.
Speaker 2:So, it's a lot of different hats that I can wear. In my practice. I specialize in trust administration and I regularly am named in successor roles. What that means is people name me in their estate planning documents, successor, trustee and also in their power of attorney documents.
Speaker 1:Now, that's something I'm familiar with power of attorney because I had that for my mother. She was bedridden with MS for about eight years and over that time she handed her whole self over to me to look after, really, so as her main carer. I've got a brother who's a carpenter and a sister who was an artist, so the nurse was to me to look after really, so it's her main care. I've got a brother who's a carpenter and a sister who was an artist, so the nurse was obviously going to look after them, wasn't she? Yeah, well.
Speaker 2:Jason, that's a perfect point, because I find that people that understand the work that I do are people that have kind of filled those same shoes oftentimes for their aging parent, but sometimes it's just another loved one, and so I love having conversations with people like you, because you get the importance of the work, also the weight of the work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot to it. There's so much to it. You know it's not just popping down the bank and writing out the checks. So what you also deal with is before end of life and after end of life and the estates, and I mean that's such a complicated or can be such a complicated subject.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it absolutely is love doing, and one of the reasons why I launched a podcast myself and I love coming on other people's podcasts is to reach people proactively, kind of before. Before you know, incapacity before death, right, most people unfortunately don't plan and I assume it's probably the numbers are grim in the UK. I don't know, but in the United States only one in three people actually spend the time to, to set up their estate plan and I really think that that, you know, is a huge failure and I want to again just kind of spread the message and start a movement that there's so much that we can do for ourselves, for our loved ones, and how that really can set people up for you know what I call the, you know, leaving a legacy of love, not a mess.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that is lovely, because it is that whole thing we have here, I think, called my Care Choices, which is being promoted now by hospices. Having said that, it's not reaching one in three is about right, I should think, and one of the things which was pointed out to me, which made me realize how important it was One of my patients. He was dying, you know, he was beyond talking to, but his wife was in a bit of a panic because he hadn't given her the passwords to any of his accounts or his online stuff, and so, you know, the whole family were having to search through the house for any little booklet he might have. That could so have been all that stress could just so have been avoided by having just the conversation. You bring up a great point, because I find that often in my practice, stress could just serve and avoided by having just the conversation.
Speaker 2:You bring up a great point because I find that often in my practice, like our passwords in our logins, that is where I hate to say it, but the estate plan is really just the starting point.
Speaker 2:There's so much more that we can do to set up ourselves and our loved ones for, you know, really comprehensive planning.
Speaker 2:And I think, after you know doing the estate plan which I'm a big advocate of, partnering with an estate planning attorney in your local area In the US, you know it's called, it's considered probate law, it's state specific and that's where partnering with a professional, and not this DIY approach, I find is a key piece in setting things up successfully.
Speaker 2:But after that it's really extending to having conversations with the people in your life where you know whether you're working with a professional. Most people are going to be working and naming right their you know their children, their entrusted friends, their loved ones in these roles, especially for the healthcare decision-making piece. But if you've never had the conversation and they don't really know what you want, sure you might have the documents in place and that's a key piece, but there's so much more. And so that's where I find that these success cases where things, of course, are still very sad and heartbreaking, going, you know, at, you know, going through loss and someone's medical crisis, but it really sets the whole team up for, you know, better success for cohesion, for not like needing to guess, and again it's, it's having the conversation and continuing to have that conversation.
Speaker 2:So one of the one of the pieces that the more that I that I, you know, you know talk to people like you and um have people on my podcast, the more that I see that we're really a death denying culture. And that, think, is just the key piece, one of the reasons why people don't plan and you know reasons, I mean, why I had to come here and talk to you. I mean, you know, of course you're a big, you know. I find the kind of the grassroots of people that are having conversations like this and really interfacing with death on a regular basis we can really bring that to the collective and share the wisdom.
Speaker 1:That is definitely the whole reason I started this podcast. I was listening, funnily enough, to a speaker who was saying you know, we don't talk about death enough, we don't name it, we don't say this person died and say they passed away or they floated off or something, I don't know, whatever strange thing that you know. We said there One was the old granddad's, you know, he's gone to the next room. I remember being at a house with somebody who said that to a little boy and he went in the next room look for them. And I said, no, you've got to be a bit more literal with kids and say he's not coming back. You know, good, say as it is. And that having that conversation, wow, that's a really uh, important thing to have beforehand, um. And so I started this podcast, like you, to get people to start thinking about this well beforehand. And here we've got a thing also which might amuse you, I'm not quite sure a thing called a funeral, which is basically a funeral before you die, so that you have everything organized.
Speaker 1:And I had this one patient. He was a young guy, he was only about 34, bless him. Um, but we, we hit it off straight away and he had this funeral. He invited people from all across the country. Uh, all his old friends, school friends. They had um, he had his own eulogy there. They had clowns, they had burger van and disco and I mean he was bedridden at the time. His bed was in, ah, oh, the middle of all of that and he planned everything perfectly in his family. But just in all, uh, and that was one of the, you know that was, and he did pass away peacefully. Very lucky, uh.
Speaker 2:But I've never heard of that.
Speaker 1:So I love that.
Speaker 1:It is a strange thing, but it's true. It's a growing movement, I think, people saying, well, look, you know, I know I'm going to die, but you're right about the denial, because I, as I say, I worked for the hospice for four years or so and what I noticed was there weren't any Chinese people in the funeral home. We had very few black people in the hospice and, you know, not many Asians generally. And I asked a friend of mine who's from Uganda. I said why is that? He said well, it's cultural. He said I've got about 12 cousins and I've got brothers and sisters like you wouldn't believe.
Speaker 1:I used to think my sister was my mother for a long time until it was pointed out to me that she wasn't. So when my actual mother is ill, you can't get through on the phone because so many people are phoning up to make sure that she's okay and that she needs everything. So but with us we've got this nuclear family, haven't we? We've got this kind of you you know, smaller family where we don't meet death as often, and therefore we, culturally, I think of just not, you know, it's kind of out of our frame we're a bit scared of talking about it.
Speaker 1:Do you find that in america is that more san francisco perhaps?
Speaker 2:oh no, it's, it's absolutely that. And I mean I think know also in the US, you know we're, we're we really glorify like this kind of endless productivity, right, we want kind of the flashy, sexy new.
Speaker 2:I'm based in Silicon Valley, so you know, yeah, so that I mean that's what you know people are really focused on and interested in. And I would say, you know, also, collectively, we really don't. We push our, you know, our elders, our seniors to the side. They're shoved, you know, in assisted living. I think baby boomers are going to really change that, reconcile how we've, you know, to date been treating and creating space for our elders, which you know we so much need. You know, I'm in my 30s but I'm a little unique. I hang out with people in their 90s. I had a client pass a few years ago who was 110.
Speaker 2:So, she's like my my favorite client to, to reference um, you know where it's just, it's a we're in an a really kind of amazing time with longevity and you know how long we can live and I I only anticipate that to grow and and hopefully also not just, you know, lifespan lengthening but quality of life improving with just the medical technology that's going to continue to roll out over the you know, the decades of my career.
Speaker 2:So I think, all of this kind of is a growing need of you know having more of this comprehensive planning. And also you brought up you know kind of just a point of sharing, like your family, and I think that that you know families are changing. You know where people you know, like we talked about, you know people are, of course, living longer but you know blended families is, I would say, more of the norm, right, divorce and remarriage, and sometimes multiple times of that, so that adds like complexity of a family. People are having less children. A lot of people are choosing not to have children.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how things continue to evolve Because, again, I see this kind of growing need of people really needing to build that support and community and you know, historically that was really the family doing that. But but if our family now is kind of in this in-between phase of evolving, okay, well, whether it's partnering with professionals or beginning to create a team of non-professionals where they might not be, you know your biological family, so I can already tell you know from our conversation now and even you know before recording, you know that's definitely much. You know part of your family just knowing that you're a foster parent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's funny. We got to that point. We were lucky in our life. We've got to that point where our kids have grown up and, as you say, longevity. My father died when he was 43, uh, from a heart attack, which was entirely preventable, but it had, you know, a lifestyle change or some of the medical knowledge that we've had over the years, and he could still be around by now. I am lucky, so I am, uh, I call this a, this episode, the altruistic, fiduciary, because that's what I think you are. You know, you, you are wanting to do this for the sake of other people. There's so many other ways you could make money. You're very clever and I don't doubt that, but this, you know, comes from the heart. Did I read somewhere that you also, or you have volunteered for the Alzheimer's Society or hospitals?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I'm not currently, but a few years ago. Before I was a mother and I had more time. I have a two-year-old right now, so my hands are full, but yeah, the Alzheimer's association, um, yeah, there we, you know, just bringing more awareness and coordinating, um, we have kind of a big walk and fundraiser, fundraising here, um, and the Silicon Valley chapters, you quite large, so yeah, there is a big awareness of the longevity, but there's also other things that are gonna affect your business, and now over here just today in Parliament, they have been discussing the.
Speaker 1:What do they call it? It it's we can end your own life, uh assisted dying bill yeah yeah so now it's legal in certain countries in europe, uh, and around the world.
Speaker 1:But, uh, here they're having a big discussion about it and there's pros and there's cons. There's, uh, we have the house of lords, of course, which is it's uh, spattered by lots of bishops who pretty much go against their grain of assisted dying, and yet we have on the other side lots of people who are in the industry, who understand that it's very important, and the bishops understand how important it is, but I think they're conflicted. So there's this big discussion about putting safeguards in place and etc. Etc. That is going to play havoc with your business. I mean, that's going to make everything even even more complicated. I thought you're the fiduciary and somebody chooses, or they've got to have that whole understanding of when it's appropriate to make that decision and put that into their life plan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I can speak. You know, again, I'm not an attorney and you know it's. Again, I can really speak very specifically to the state of California. But we were one of, you know, the few states that did pass it, I believe that just last year. It's actually no longer legal, but you can't plan for that. But again, this is all I know is that it's specific to California. So when it was legal, part of the requirement was that you know that person would have to have a capacity. So you know it kind of rules out. You know people with you know Alzheimer's or dementia, you know, and such.
Speaker 2:It really would only fit like if you had this terminal illness and you would need to have two doctors, um, basically signing off on that. And I I can't say that I have had one client that that took advantage of that Um, and and so actually, like from my standpoint, you know it, it wasn't really kind of complex, um, because it was she she was dying of cancer and and she was, you know, able to be, you know, kind of empowered and in her decision of when it was time and she was gathered around by her friends and she had a very beautiful death. She actually adopted a, she had a few kittens and she was in her home and it was really like her choice and her way and it happened to be right before COVID. So, yeah, I administered her trust after her death.
Speaker 2:It'll be interesting to see as it evolves, and it really is. I think it is a kind of a current hot topic and what it certainly is here there.
Speaker 1:I think it is a kind of a current hot topic yeah and what?
Speaker 1:it certainly is here. Uh, there's a lot of discussion for and against, um and uh, I mean, but there's also a lot of disinformation. I'm going to tell you, I was just talking to a chap today who, uh, was saying, yes, you know. I said I'm all for it, I think it's a great thing, but you know, there's got to be safeguards, because, did you know, in canada, you know, you can make a phone call in the morning and be dead by the afternoon, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work quite like that, mate, you know so there's a lot of you know, and the whole world is is kind of at the moment going through a disinformation crisis, I think, on many fronts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean I just know in California it's a very slow process, you know, to really kind of just safeguard. And again, it required, you know, two doctors to sign off on. I have sat in like a good amount of presentations kind of about how to navigate that because obviously, if you're you know, if, if you've been referred to hospice, um, you know you, you might end up passing kind of before you can get the medication, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, I'm definitely here, Uh, oh, hang on the dogs, can you hear?
Speaker 2:the dogs.
Speaker 1:I can hear the dogs. I can hear the dogs yes. They're back, that's okay. We won't worry about that. If the kids come in, don't worry, we'll just let them do their thing and we'll carry on, if you're okay with that. I know most podcasters will gulp at that and go oh my God, you can't have noise in the background. I think we can. That's exciting. I have a toddler.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, you know, it's like a real life, isn't it? Yeah, you know, it's just thrown me now, actually, one of the things that I think is also quite interesting you talk about evolving, and I was listening to some science program a little while ago about how he was saying what is the future likely to be like, and one of the things he said is, in the next 20 years, you'll be able to you know, people want to put chips in their brains and things you'll be able to upload yourself more or less to a computer, which means that when you die, you're not really dead because you're in a computer somewhere. And I'm just thinking is that even possible? You know, well, it's not now, now, but they reckon that it could be which means you don't need this new skeleton. That's going to be a big religious problem, as it happens, because you won't need this meat here walking around. You know, well, you can maybe download yourself into another one, I don't know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I just thought I'd bring that up because it just made me smile. I thought, well, if that happens, we're all going to get really complicated in many ways. That's crazy. So, yeah, so how can people contact you? I mean, I know we're in the UK, but I do have listeners in America and I think it's important. In fact, I've probably got more listeners in America than I have in the UK, which isn't very flattering, but there we have it, yeah. So how can they reach you, how can they get hold of you and talk more about your services? I know you've got a website.
Speaker 1:Yeah so if you're in California definitely you could.
Speaker 2:You could reach out to me my website's trust and honor co. There's a lot of information just about the services that I provide actually we've got.
Speaker 1:We've got also a little cocker spaniel and it keeps coming in and out of the cat flap because it's that small. Now, Okay, just ignore the dogs. I'm trying. Sorry, there's a distraction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're looking and interested in professional fiduciary services and based in California, you can, okay, yeah, you know, if you're, you know, looking and interested in professional fiduciary services and based in California, you can find me there. And if conversations like this if setting up an estate plan, you know, is, you know, beginning to be on your radar, or maybe you already have an estate plan but you don't really quite understand the function. Maybe you already have an estate plan but you don't really quite understand the function, that's a lot of why I launched my podcast called the Legacy of Love, and it's really to empower people, to educate people and also to kind of turn estate planning upside on its head. You know I want to speak to people that you know our legacy is so much more than just our money and our belongings and what we leave behind. It's really how we live day to day, and for me, that's so much of what originally brought me to the work is feeling called to serve an end of life care, and so I thought I would be a hospice nurse at one point before finding this work.
Speaker 2:But what I love about death is that it's it really is the ultimate truth serum. You know, life keeps us so busy and there's just such a buzz right. I'm in the messy middle of life. You know juggling, you know business and motherhood, and I get it. It pulls us. But you know when death, when we're really present, what is? It kind of just forces you into the present and that's where I think it's just such a you know, a gift that we have. You know this one, this one life, and it really can bring into focus, the more that we lean into our own mortality brings into focus our actual life and how we live and defining that. So if you, if any of that resonates, I think you would love the podcast.
Speaker 2:Come on over, tune in, listen to a few episodes and I really try to lead with, you know, having a lot of conversations with experts in law, finance and health care that really lead from the heart. I know that's my approach.
Speaker 1:It's very evident.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks for noticing that, and I also have a free workbook for listeners and it really doesn't matter wherever you are, it might resonate and it's just a legacy of love workbook. You can go to my website trustandonorco backslash workbook and I know you can include all of that in the show notes and it's really just an exercise to get intentional with what are our values, what are our wishes, what is it that we want to leave, you know, for that next generation? And I really believe that the more that we lean in and are intentional with this planning piece, the more that that can be just a whole ripple, not just for our life and our children but the whole family lineage in the future. So that's where I think there's just so much power in this.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, if we're willing to claim it I think it's brilliant because it's also it's having the conversation, having the whole family not be, as you call it, in death denial, uh, so saying you know it is gonna happen, so let's just plan for it, get a lot of it, get on with it and have life, uh, and really enjoy that life. Uh. And and the hospital you mentioned you nearly became a hospice but nurse and I think you'd have been brilliant at it, because one of the things that you know, I really enjoyed going into people's homes and they're all really tense in the morning when you first go in the medicine and you know, never had a hospice carer and you go in and they're saying, oh, we've got to do this, we're going to do that. We don't know what, you know what's going to happen and you can just a bit like your job. You just take all the stress away and you say, look, listen, we're going to come in, we're going to clean and wash your relative, uh, in the morning, get them up, maybe get them in the chair or wherever, because it's the last four weeks that we're normally in there and we'll take care of all the medication.
Speaker 1:We've got a thing called single point where you can phone and they will tell you anything you need to know about, anything anywhere regarding end-of-life care, so they can point you in the right directions of nurses, doctors, lawyers, you know funeral homes and you know so all those things we don't think about when suddenly it you know it we're faced with how do I deal with all of this? And you've got this great service. You'd be brilliant at that because you, the moment I walked in and said hello, big smile, and that's exactly what people want to see, and we were going in the afternoons, and all that tension will have gone and they will have said, right, well, we can start moving forward now, we can start planning, and so what you're doing, I think, is brilliant because it's it's having that conversation a year before, two years, ten years before you're even getting to that point, so it's hopefully worked into people's lives. See, you're not stressing about it, you're not having to worry about it, it's already there and you've got somebody who can just remind you it's already there.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, Thank you, thank you. I received that. That's so sweet of you, and I'm glad you see that.
Speaker 1:But that is, I think, one of the biggest gifts that we can leave our loved ones right, and so you're organizing that Most of us know those stories where people didn't plan and families are torn apart and it's just a mess.
Speaker 2:You know a mess of things. A mess of, you know, the family fighting and feuding through courts. Mess of things, a mess of you know, the family fighting and feuding through courts. And that's really what you know, what, what we want to avoid you know, absolutely intentional, being organized, planning and and being willing to be. You know, having having those difficult conversations with ourselves, I think, first and foremost, I'm gonna leave this last thing with you.
Speaker 1:Um, before I go is, uh, I thought I was going to face death and I'll tell you for why it is. Because, uh, I'll be blunt about it Uh, we were going out New Year's Eve for an evening and I I went to the loo and I'm a nurse, so I know how this thing goes and I realized it was not just blood in my urine but in my feces too and I kind of thought and it looked like fresh blood and I thought, okay, looks like I'm going to start my journey. And I didn't say anything that night. I was still there the next day and I was feeling really resigned, kind of to it and I wanted my family to be okay with all of that, etc. And I went to the doctor and the doctor said Jason, have you been drinking beetroot juice lately? And I went oh my God, yeah, he said, because that's it's not blood in the urine, it's beetaturia, it's beetroot juice.
Speaker 1:So everybody tried to be really healthy, going through all that psychological stuff of thinking, facing death, and then, no, I'm absolutely fine, it has nothing to do with it whatsoever. So, yeah, just a little heads up there about how your mind can race ahead, and I realized how unprepared I had been. But if that had actually happened, so yeah, good life lesson get prepared for sure. Yes, sarah, it's been an absolute joy chatting with you and likewise, jason.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:No, that's great and it'd be great if I could, uh, maybe tap you up in a year and come and say hello again and, um, and we can see how the business has grown for you and how you know what other experiences you've had, uh, and how the little one is doing so, two years old please do, let's stay in touch.
Speaker 2:Is that two?
Speaker 1:years old, did you say two. Yeah, two years old, you're at the beginning of that journey. That's for sure. So it's a journey for sure, okay. So everybody trust and honor. Uh, go along, have a look and meet the lovely sarah. Thanks very much, sarah thank you, jason.
