Everything End of Life.
This podcast is dedicated to talking to experts and others about all aspects of death and dying. You know, that thing we don't really want to talk about!
As a hospice carer and former psychiatric nurse as well as writer and former Theatre director, I invite guests to talk about their roles in and what to expect in the last four weeks of life. What happens to the person dying, what help is there, what to do before and after the event.
Many of the families we go in to see have one thing in common and that is that they don't know what to expect. I thought that a Podcast may help and then discovered so much to explore that is of interest to people such as alternative funerals, what do Hospices actually do, what role do religions play?
So join me for the first interview as we begin this Podcast with Clinical Nurse Specialist Becky Rix where we grasp the nettle and discuss what happens to us generally in those last four weeks.
Time to explore "Everything End of Life".
Everything End of Life.
Clare Montagu: Redefining Farewells with Empathy and Honesty in Funeral Care.
Discover the tender intersection of hospice and funeral care with Clare Montagu of Poppy's Funerals, where we delve into how her experiences shape a more compassionate approach to saying goodbye. As we sit down with this insightful CEO, you'll learn about the importance of personalized services for the bereaved and the deceased, the profound effects of family experiences on funeral arrangements, and why empathy and transparency are non-negotiable in this field. Join us for a conversation that will not only illuminate the seamless continuity of care from end-of-life services to the crafting of final farewells but will also reinforce the vital need to honor the individuality of each journey.
Embarking on a journey through the nuances of funeral care, we unpack the misunderstood practice of embalming, its true necessity, and the alternatives that can offer families comfort and choice. Clare Montagu enlightens us on the pressures that may arise from within the funeral industry. We dissect the chilling reminder from Hull's unfortunate events, emphasizing the paramount significance of transparency for trust-building and the benefits of open-door policies in funeral homes that invite families into the process, ensuring surpassing standards of care.
Finally, we tackle the cultural shyness surrounding conversations about death and how humor and education can bridge the gap. As we discuss the efforts to engage new generations in understanding mortality, we find that laughter might just be the unexpected companion in breaking the silence. The conversation also spotlights the unsettling lack of regulation in parts of the funeral industry, hinting at the potential for licensing and new technologies to enhance care standards. For those eager to navigate these profound topics further, Clare directs us to Poppy's Funerals' rich resources and blog – a trove of wisdom for anyone seeking to demystify the journey of death and dying.
For those interested in what Palliative care looks like at home there is "The Last Kiss" (Not a Romance)
Available on Amazon now
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Kiss-Romance-Carers-Stories/dp/1919635289/ref=sr_1_1?crid=13D6YWONKR5YH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9._59mNNFoc-rROuWZnAQfsG0l3iseuQuK_gx-VxO_fe6DLJR8M0Az039lJk_HxFcW2o2HMhIH3r3PuD7Dj-D6KTwIHDMl2Q51FGLK8UFYOBwbRmrLMbpYoqOL6I5ruLukF1vq7umXueIASDS2pO91JktkZriJDJzgLfPv1ft5UtkdQxs9isRDmzAYzc5MKKztINcNGBq-GRWKxgvc_OV5iKKvpw0I5d7ZQMWuvGZODlY.fqQgWV-yBiNB5186RxkkWvQYBoEsDbyq-Hai3rU1cwg&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+last+kiss+not+a+romance&qid=1713902566&s=books&sprefix=The+Last+kiss+n%2Cstripbooks%2C107&sr=1-1
Hello and welcome to Everything End of Life with me, jason Cottrell and guests and, of course, the lovely Debbie. Hello, debbie, hello. So my guest for this particular session is going to be Claire Montague from Poppy's Funeral Care, based in South London, and what we concentrate here is really fascinating, because it's about and uh and the different levels of care, and claire comes from, funnily enough, the background of hospice work, which gives her a completely different spin on funeral care. She's the ceo, so we're not going to say too much about that. But you listened to the interview, didn't you?
Speaker 2:I did. I think the thing about funerals is, it's one of those things that when something like that happens to you and like when we lost my dad, I was like okay, so what do we do next?
Speaker 1:How do?
Speaker 2:we know who to phone.
Speaker 1:You know, and when my mum went 20 odd years ago, as I said, we had brilliant funeral care.
Speaker 2:They were good, they were really good.
Speaker 1:It's not always the case. Funeral care is a business and you're going to get good and bad, um, but with uh, with claire, she explains the whole kind of industry really, really succinctly. So, without any further ado, let's just listen to claire montague, and thank you for joining me here at uh, everything end of life. Uh, now for the world who doesn't know? Uh, you, uh, you work at poppies funeral care. Is it funeral care or poppies funerals?
Speaker 3:well, we are the.
Speaker 1:The business name is technically poppies funerals, but we call ourselves poppies poppies, yeah, uh, which is a very friendly and open um approach, I think. So that's something we'll we'll actually come across, we'll talk about a little later, but would you be kind enough just to tell us a little bit about yourself how you ended up at Poppies? Poppies is in. Is it in Lambeth?
Speaker 3:So we cover the whole of Greater London. We have two branches at the moment, one in Tooting in Lambeth Cemetery and one in East Sheen in South West London. But we look after people actually in Greater London and beyond.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so your position is presently.
Speaker 3:I am CEO. I have been CEO of Poppies for just over two years, which is a huge privilege.
Speaker 1:Now that's an interesting thing, and that's not something that you leave school and think, right, okay, I'm going to head towards being the CEO of a funeral company. So how did you get from there to here? If I may ask?
Speaker 3:Of course. So my previous job before working at Poppy's was I was working at a hospice for seven years. I'm not a clinician. I worked in operational management in a large hospice in London and so I saw it firsthand what amazing care people give, what the clinicians at the hospice gave at the end of life, and also how difficult and challenging it was for people who had a life limiting condition to think and talk about often the end-of-life and end-of-life care and to talk about it with their families. And so very quickly within hospice we bumped up, just as you know, the experience of people not wanting to think or talk about death while actually the hospice part of the hospice's job is to help people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have a thing here called my Care Choices and I'm sure you've had something similar there whereas you go in and you have to broach those subjects that are very, quite difficult for some at that time, because it is, you know, it's a stressful time, it is. But yeah, so that's, that's, that's the job of the hospice and, interestingly, that's an environment which is very caring and very specific. It has a lot of uh, not regulation, shall we say, but obligation, I would say and regulation and well, yeah, and regulation, but but to the client, to the person, uh, to the family.
Speaker 1:There's a huge amount of emphasis on care, yes, and for me for me.
Speaker 3:So my I was at this hospice, where absolutely care and putting both the person who was sick but also the family and friends around them at the heart of what they do is very much part of the ethos, along with sort of planning for the inevitable end of life and what happens afterwards. It was Royal Trinity Hospice in Capham we worked closely with and I knew of Poppy's. Poppy Mardle set up Poppy's funerals about 12 years ago and she set up the business in part in response to some really shocking exposes of poor care and practice in the funeral sector, many of which, sadly, some of those practices go on today. So we were set up because, I mean, poppy wanted to change her career and do something a bit different, but the animus for our work was that the sector was often very opaque, very old-fashioned, did not focus on necessarily great care for the client, either the living or the dead, and, as I say, she had seen a number of really quite shocking exposures about the way that some funeral directors were caring for the dead and I think that motivated her to set up something that was different, that was about putting the client, both the living and the dead, at the heart of the business.
Speaker 3:And so for me, when I was at the hospice and then coming onto Poppies, what Poppies as a business does, as a funeral business, is absolutely a continuum of what the hospice does. So we put care for the living and the dead at the heart of what we do and we don't sit there and try and flog you packages or tell you that you have to buy a certain number of limos or that you have to mourn people in a certain way. We start with what matters to you, what is important to you and how you want to remember the person who's died, and we take it from there. And so that sense of giving someone an outstanding experience and putting grieving people and dead people at the heart of the experience is all that poppies is about and that's very much a continuum of how hospices care for people at the end of life right, okay, now you, the fact, the very fact that you're mentioning that, tells me that that is not the case always.
Speaker 1:Generally should we say and and that, uh, funeral care a lot of people don't realize is actually a business. It's there, it's a profit making business, um, which of course then leads to some bad practices, some malpractices, which is what we presume. I presume that poppy had seen and hadn't wanted to have for sure people, so she wanted to make a big change. So then let's say something. Obviously you know that attracted you from the hospice, because I, you know, when we talked before you said that you know you'd finished at the hospice, there was a bit of a gap, um, and you had a sabbatical well, I had some time off.
Speaker 3:It was supposed to be a sabbatical, but it was in during the pandemic, and so my plan turned out to be some time off at home.
Speaker 1:That's very. It's fairly bad timing. I must say yeah, but that I presume that kind of then gave you some reflection and a desire to do something new.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean. So I think there's two parts to this. There's one thing I just want to pick up. When you talked about funeral the funeral sector we can talk a bit more about the standards in the funeral sector, and that being related to the fact that they're profit-making businesses. So for sure, the funeral sector is for profit. It's not a state-provided service but so too is the social care sector. So too are many private hospitals. The other issue here that people are always really surprised about and I certainly was coming from a highly regulated sector is that there is no regulation at all of the funeral sector. You could put some refrigeration in your back garden and call yourself a funeral director. There is nothing stopping you doing that. Um, there's clearly some standards around health and safety and and around infection control and public health, but actually there is no framework or license or statutory code in place I mean that provision of funeral services that is going to be remarkable to a lot of people.
Speaker 1:A lot of us just presume that this is some reasonably heavily regulated, very well organized clockwork thing that's going to happen when somebody dies somebody. And, and, to be fair, my experience I was very lucky, you know. The funeral care we had for my mother was perfect, couldn't have been better had a really caring, lovely lady who came along with her guys and and sat me down and talked everything through and gave me the choices made, everything it was. It was a beautiful experience I've got. I've got no complaints there. So I'm kind of hoping that most people have that experience, but that's clearly not the case.
Speaker 3:But I think. No, I don't think it is the case is the answer, and I think I think that there are a number of sort of strands that contribute to this. So we are a death phobic society. We don't really think or talk much about death. We don't know much about funerals until we're in the position that we have to organize one.
Speaker 3:Generally, it's something you do maybe once or twice in your life and it's not something that I mean. Quite often, all the time, we get people reading and saying I've not like, what do I do now? My mum's died, what do I do? Um, and so you're, you're in a position where you're very vulnerable and you're doing this probably for the first time, unless you're very unlucky in your 40s, 50s, maybe 60s and so you're trying to organise something in a sector that you don't know your way around, whereas most other environments you've got an expectation that you know what that looks like, whether that's within a public service environment like a healthcare or a school. You know what a good school looks like and you know what a good care home looks like.
Speaker 1:We have an offset thing, don't we?
Speaker 3:You have offset, so you have ratings yeah so you have ratings, but you also know I mean again, if you're shopping around in a retail, in a commercial environment, you know what a good shop looks like, or a good retailer looks like, or what kind of department stores you want to shop at, what supermarkets you want to shop at, and so there's this sort of knowledge vacuum around funerals and also there isn't anything in place that could give you a degree of consumer confidence. And because it's not a sector that is hugely thought about or talked about, there have been, over time, a bunch of practices that have emerged, talked about. There have been, over time, a bunch of practices that have emerged. Some of us, and clearly not all funeral directors but there are some where the practices is not great and some of it is really shocking and some of it is not really shocking. It's just routinely, just not very nice sometimes and not necessarily how you would want you know your own mum or dad to be looked after.
Speaker 1:I think that the interesting thing here is that we, as you said, you know we're death phobic. If we're not death phobic, we're certainly. It's not something we tend to look at until it directly affects us. And I think that is a very interesting thing, isn't it? Because, you know, it leaves a big gap in vulnerability, as you say. So we only tend to get to look at this when it's happening to us, so that in that moment we're already vulnerable. Then we go and look for somebody to look after us and to look after our, our relative who has died, or our friend who's died, but we're coming from a position that's very, um, as I say, vulnerable. So, yeah, it must be open to uh, what not? Not crooks, all right, but it must be open to a abuse of bending of the rules, or I mean that's, that's, that's, it's very worse, but I mean I'll give you an example.
Speaker 3:So we, we, we do a lot of work talking to people about what we call great death care, what that looks like and what, when you're in the position of needing a funeral director, what you should look like, what you should look for and what are the things that actually make good care after someone's died. Because, again, without any either consumer standards or understanding of the sector, how do I know what I want for my person? I had a friend whose mum died during the pandemic and he was told that, because of COVID, she needed to be embalmed. I mean that was nonsense. People are quite often routinely told, particularly if they want to come and visit their person after they've died, that they should be embalmed and there's no reason for that. And it is also that what will classically happen is that that won't necessarily be explained to the client what embalming actually entails.
Speaker 1:Thank you. You threw me a real curve there. So, yeah, embalming. So what is that all about?
Speaker 3:Embalming is a preserving technique and it involves basically quite a lot of quite toxic chemicals and it's quite invasive, involves basically quite a lot of quite toxic chemicals and it's quite invasive. And for you don't need to. If you keep someone cool in refrigeration, you don't need to embalm someone. The only circumstances under which someone would need to be embalmed is repatriation either if you're taking someone overseas or bringing them back if they've died overseas. If they're going on an airplane, they need to be embalmed. But but other than that, they really don't. But actually, for some funeral directors, because of the way particularly that they choose to operate their mortuary systems and the way that they have centralized mortuaries and local shops and people, if you have a client who says I want to visit my mom or my dad or whoever it is at the local shop and the person is being taken from a centralized mortuary to the shop and therefore they're out of refrigeration for a bit, the funeral director feels more comfortable with recommending that that person is in bond.
Speaker 3:But the problem is that's not. If you don't know, you don't think to ask and if you're just told well, we recommend that you embalm, you go okay then, and subsequently you need to find out exactly what that means and whether that's right for you. And of course there is also a cost to that. But just so, a very sort of that's a very live example that happens very frequently. You go into a funeral director and they will say, well, if you want to visit, we recommend you should be embalmed. And you think, well, okay, you know, you're the expert, that's why I'm here yeah, and of course they're not the experts they're not the expert.
Speaker 3:It should be the client who's the expert. It should be the client who's able to make an informed choice that says well, and you don't think to ask. Just like you don't think to ask when the dentist says you know you're probably going to need a filling, or when the doctor says you know, I think you need to go for more checks.
Speaker 1:And the funeral director is in a similar position for many people, but without the same actually level of expertise that dentistry and dentists and doctors have let's think this is the interesting thing is because now is the time to unpick this for yourself, rather than when somebody dies or somebody close to you does and you're quite you know. It is quite enlightening to think well, hang on, yeah, embalming, I never really gave that any thought to anything and therefore I would have been taken completely by surprise if somebody suggested that. Yeah, I mean, it brings me on to. I'm going to bring up the recent case of the funeral care that happened in Hull and the police were involved and two people were arrested and bodies had to be taken to a place of safety.
Speaker 1:I mean, how bad must it be if even your body has to be going to a place of safety? So, and I think there were 35 bodies that had been taken from one particular place. So this is probably one of the worst of the worst for the sounds of things, but it does, you know, show this this complete lack of a regulation and b openness about things. Yeah, um, and it's the openness I think is another thing that I, when we were talking before you, were saying that Poppy wanted to make sure there was a complete transparency. Yeah, so that your entire funeral home is kind of visitable for everybody. Sure for sure.
Speaker 3:I think that's absolutely right. So we take the view very strongly, I mean in terms of our approach to care, is that everything is open, everything is transparent and how we care for the dead is open and transparent, and that includes our mortuary, and that means that anyone who wants to come and look at our mortuary see where their person is going to be looked after. If we collected someone and the family members want to come and come back to the mortuary and help check their person into the mortuary, that's totally fine. We also open up our mortuary for open days to our community and to people who are interested and want to find out more about death and dying, and we think it's really important that you talk about this thing that is shrouded in mystery, which is how do you look after the dead, and people have imaginations that are way worse than anything in reality, and you know fiction and TV movies don't help, and so actually the part of our work is to say this is what, this is what we do when we look after someone who's died. This is how we look after people in the mortuary, this is what we think great care looks like and I think the whole thing. I mean I've no idea what went on then. Nothing been released. But I mean it's just desperately sad for those families and friends who are now constantly thinking about and will not get respite in some of those cases, particularly where cremation has taken place about what went on for that, for that person, for that for their person. And I think so.
Speaker 3:I think there is a. There is absolutely, there's always going to be, sadly, really bad practice. But I think there's the point about regulation, putting in place some minimum standards that can then be enforced. But the bigger picture for us is that minimum standards only get you so far. I mean, when I was at Royal Trinity Hospice, we got an outstanding from the CQC. That wasn't because we stuck to CQC's rating systems, you know. It was because we gave outstanding care. If you try and just deliver to the minimum standards, you only get minimum standards. If you want outstanding care, that needs to be at the heart of your philosophy, and that's true for schools, that's true for hospices and hospitals and it's also true for funeral directors too. So minimum standards is a floor below which you cannot fall, but actually outstanding care comes from the philosophy of care that you have towards looking after people who've died.
Speaker 3:And it's also about being transparent and open about that care and saying come into our mortuary. Our mortuary is a beautiful space. It's a sort of sunny, full of a converted chapel, full of natural light, wood panels. It's unlike any other mortuary that you'll have seen and it's certainly unlike any of the sort of basement dimly lit, not very nice, smelling places that you either see on TV or might imagine from TV.
Speaker 3:And we want to say we give our best space to the dead, because that's emblematic of how we care for the dead, and everyone in this business does some work in the mortuary. I mean, I was in there earlier this week, I'm doing it again tomorrow. It's a great privilege to look after well people who've died, just as it is a great privilege to do the work that you do in the hospice. And if we don't see that as being analogous to how we care for the living, then we're on a hiding to nothing. Once you get to the point at which you've got some minimum standards, you also need to be really open and think about what great care for the dead looks like, and that's the only way you get the transformation, exactly the same as in education or in healthcare.
Speaker 1:I think you know there's an interesting word you used there and that's continuity. And you know it would be nice to think. I mean I'm going to ask you in a minute about how you see that could be improved. I mean what government regulation could be put in place. I mean it's going to be, you know, an uphill struggle, I should imagine, because no mp is going to want to um get that involved. I shouldn't think with something that's not going to be a priority for him. I mean it it's not a vote winner, is it?
Speaker 1:So it might be difficult to see change happen within the industry, but the continuity, the word continuity you brought up there, and it would make sense I mean it's probably not financial or charitable sense, I'm not sure. But for that journey, when we start talking about my care choices, about how what we want to see happen when we die is for funeral homes to be much more linked to hospices, so that it's one journey all the way through Almost, I mean I know you can franchise certain things. You know I know various big funeral companies are franchised, but you can franchise. If a hospice had franchised something, they would actually have some more control. You would think about that journey from beginning to end.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think there's a number of things to say about that. So we try and work very closely with not just hospices actually, because people, as you know, not that many people relatively die in hospices, relative to being at home in the community, in the care home, hospitals. One of the things that we do is work, try and work closely with local health care professionals to help them understand that there is such a thing as great death care. So I think at the moment you're right in the sense that we do. I think we do provide exactly the same continuity of care. So I think at the moment you're right in the sense that I think we do provide exactly the same continuity of care.
Speaker 3:I think the difficulty is that healthcare professionals, wholly understandably, are not trained to think about and this was true when I was in the hospice we're not trained to think about what happens after someone dies. I mean, when I was at Trinity, we looked after someone beautifully until they died. We looked after them beautifully after they died, if they died in the wards, and then at that point the family was responsible for calling funeral director and then the funeral director would collect that person and there was no sense, for us at least, or there's no sense for a lot of hospices, hospitals, care homes that you need to concern yourself about what happens next, not least because, particularly in healthcare at the moment, you know you're absolutely overwhelmed with the care of the living. So what we try and do is say to I think so. I think the idea of an extension is wonderful, but probably at the moment a bit of a step too far for many sort of healthcare leaders with narrow bandwidth. What we want to get them to do is to think about that.
Speaker 3:Actually there is such a thing as great death care. Going to do is to think about that. Actually there is such a thing as great death care. And just to help people start thinking about that continuum not that they become experts in it, because I don't think that's too much for us, but just that they know enough to be able to signpost the people that they're working with who are asking questions about what happens after death, so that they're able to say here is a. We produce some information, we have a guide to great death care. We produce other information that helps people understand that, whatever you're looking for, this is what great care should look like, and so we do a lot of work with health care professionals to say just know that it's a thing that there is good and bad care after death, just as there is good and bad care after life. And these are some things that you might need to know in order to signpost when you're looking after people at the end of life.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. We have a thing at the moment I think it's called Compassionate Cultures or Compassionate Cities, something similar, I think I've got it Compassionate Communities. There you go, and that is something that is people looking at the whole picture, from birth to death and beyond, and I'm trying to make that journey an easier and more well-educated one. I think what you said with everything works in a hospice and outside of a hospice mainly outside of a hospice that when we get to that point where the patient dies, it's almost a feeling of job done, we finish, that's where, that's where our bit finishes, and then the funeral king takes over and there's a kind of weird little little, tiny little gap in between of, uh, of okay, of the relatives being a bit kind of lost yeah you know that had all of this, you know compassion on this of almost love and and uh, comfort given to them by the nurses and the doctors and the cleaners and everybody in the hospice, and then that just kind of stops.
Speaker 3:and then there's the funeral care, and that's the point that we made is that you don't want people to go off a cliff at precisely that point, when they're at their most vulnerable, and particularly then. You know, with hospices, if you're also giving that family or friends bereavement support, you've got a lot of intensive support. Then there's death and then it's an eight to twelve week gap and then we'll pop back up again. You know, actually there's that bit in the middle and we hold help families through that bit, and so again, that is the point to say that though that period of time, that ritual that started that grief journey for want of a better term is really important and you should choose wisely and carefully and understand you know what's right for you as well.
Speaker 3:I mean, the other thing is that not not all families and not obviously not all people are the same. So what one family or one friend or one person who's organizing a funeral for someone once is completely different from someone else, and you need to know that there isn't one way of doing a funeral. There isn't. You know, some people will I mean, for example, some people it's really important and it's so special to be involved in the washing, the dressing, perhaps putting makeup on the person who's died. For others. I mean, I can think of members of my family who'll be like no, I don't really want anything like that at all and and and you know, oh no, thank you very much.
Speaker 3:You know that person's died, so I think you've got to be able to know that, that the funeral director that can can look after whoever comes through the door, in whatever shape they're in, and can help them and walk alongside them for the three to four weeks until the funeral, and that you know that they're going to give a great job with whatever client is in front of them. For some people it's a big fuss, for some people it's, it's it's really low key. For some people it's. You know that there's. It's a very traumatic death and that brings a whole load of other stuff that comes with it. Sometimes it's a, an old lady who's lived to 96 and you know, while it's very sad that she's gone, she it's a life well lived. There's everything in between. You know, we see every single bit of human experience, as do you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, and you know I'm going to come to the end of the interview in a few moments, but for many of us, the only time we ever have either experienced funeral is by watching Dave Allen on the television or by actually being directly involved in something a bit more serious. Um, now, one of the things I you know that's become very apparent to me is the huge breadth of experience that you and skills that you should really have to be a funeral director, from all of those things from you know, looking after how somebody looks like, how they're cared for from the side of things. It's a huge undertaking. So I think I guess what I would, you know.
Speaker 1:The thing that's on my mind most is the question I want to ask you is how would you like to see it better regulated? How can that actually happen going forward? I mean, it's not nothing's going to happen this year. You know it's not going to happen in the short term, but what cultural change would you like to be able to see? Unless you know something I don't.
Speaker 3:So I think you're right. So I think there are two parts to your question and I think cultural change is the one that's critical. So there's the stuff which is not small, which is the regulation piece, and actually that's about a confluence of wills. There is work going on in Scotland to license funeral directors. The Law Commission is looking at not funeral directors specifically but around the laws around burial and cremation and some of the new technologies that are coming through in that area.
Speaker 3:So there is sort of work afoot and there are new ways of managing the body after death. There's a process called alkaline hydrolysis, which is a form of cremation which the CARP have said that they want to use in this country. So there are sort of hooks that are coming up. It does take political will and whether it's a new or an old administration, it's not top of anyone's priority list and sadly, one of the things we've learned, even with the whole case, is that there's been any number of exposés and sort of things don't change. But there are moves afoot and definitely where, given that there is some regulation going ahead in Scotland, that there is hope that there is something that could be built upon there.
Speaker 1:Could be a template.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it is obviously subject to whoever's in government and the legislative programme and who wants to go down that road. But I think at some point that will happen. But for me the bigger point is this cultural change and getting to a stage where we are curious about death, where we think and talk about death, where we plan for our funerals and our death and our end of life well in advance of. You know, it's really hard as you know from your hospice work for someone who is really sick. Some people are all over it, but if you're really sick and death is imminent, like months or weeks, it is very hard to is much harder to be able to start talking dispassionately about what you might or might not want than it is when you're well and where you know intellectually it's going to happen, but it doesn't feel like it is imminent. And the more that we get comfortable with thinking and talking about death that it is matter of fact, that it's something where we don't use euphemism, where we do feel like it's something that we're educated in so that when it happens to someone who's close to us we don't feel like that. We, in addition to the grief, we're plunged into this vortex of.
Speaker 3:I have no idea what I'm doing. That's the only thing I think really is going to change, and I do think that there is a younger generation is more in tune with mental health. That is more curious about some elements of spiritualism. I think that there are green shoots of a generational shift and certainly people who obviously, with technological change, are much more up for looking at problems in a new way. So I think there is hope, but it's going to need a cultural change.
Speaker 1:I've got my friend, greg Cooper, from St Paul's Thing this, compassionate communities by creating events that raise that sort of awareness We've even got, and he promotes things that other people are doing. We have open days of crematoriums, for instance, on what can happen there, but it's very difficult and, as you say, we've got a whole new uh generation of people coming through, are a bit more aware. Because if somebody had said to me when I was 18 to 30, 35, would you like to come to an open day at a crematorium? I would have just scratched my chin and said, no, I'm all right. Really, thanks, I've got other things going on, because clearly at that time I was immortal, uh and um, that that whole side of death hadn't really touched me. But I mean my work, so it has to. I think there is a personal connection when it hits you personally, and lots of people from kids upwards have been hit by death, uh, personally with their relatives.
Speaker 3:So it's not just an age thing, I think, but it's a connection thing and I I think I think that's right and I also think I mean you're, you're right like loads of crematory do open days and those are great, but they probably a bit like our mock tree open day. You presuppose a level of curiousness even to say that that's something that you want to do. Actually, there's the bit, there's a step back which is even just stimulating the discussion. One of the things I always find and I don't know if you find the same is that I'm always so chastened by when I talk about our work. You know normally that sort of thing where people say what do you do? And I say I work at a funeral directors. You know grim, reaper, alert.
Speaker 3:And actually, when I talk about our work and I talk about how we look after people and I talk around the issues around death and dying, people are genuinely very interested, even if they will themselves acknowledge that they haven't done their will or they haven't talked to their partner about what they want or any of those other things. It is something that I think we do have innately in us genuine curiosity, because it is innate to the human condition, and so there is something that can be tapped at. It's just a case of finding the ways, I think, in which you are exposed quite young to a normal, to making it normal that you talk about death, and it works in other cultures and it 150 years ago it was very normal in our community. It's just the way in which things have developed, is it's you?
Speaker 1:know most people haven't seen someone die dead for example, family. Now don't we we have, we don't have that extended thing where it's happening. You know, because of numbers of people, you know you're not taken to uncle, you know fred's funeral, etc.
Speaker 3:Not in this country. No.
Speaker 1:There are 30 different Uncle Freds lurking around. So, yeah, that intro. I think one of the ways, one of the ins and it's something that I want to talk to with some friends of mine that are comedians is how they can get that message out there, because that is the one thing If you start off, for us british white people is humor and it's a little bit of black humor, and then that is the way in to to start the discussion, funnily enough, with people, and it's something I I would love to see. A lot more of us using comedy, just as we use theater for revolution, is to use comedy for change and for discussion in these areas. So that's something I think that we can do and certainly something I'll be inviting guests on to talk about, you know, in the near future, I kind of hope. And I mean listen, claire, it's been amazing.
Speaker 3:Thank you, jason, it's lovely to talk to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you and I'll have to come down to to london sometime have a cup of tea, and it'd be lovely.
Speaker 3:You'd be very welcome. We would do you a tour. We'd show you our mortuary.
Speaker 1:We're very proud of it yeah, I'd love to show you around I'd love that I'd be taking photos and that would be, yeah, I'm not, you know, you know yeah, it's all right it's of course, uh, yeah. So once again, thank you very much for your time. And if anybody from the Greater London area wants to get hold of you, how do they do that?
Speaker 3:So the best way is they can give us a call. We are 020-3589-4726. Or we have a website which is poppysfunerals all one word, couk and one of the things that we do is we put loads of information up on our website. We have a blog that we call talking death, which is easily navigable from our website, and it has all sorts of resources and information practical advice about what to do when someone dies, but also information about what's possible. Um, and we are, I think, google. If google's top search, if you want to find out about embalming, uh, we have a blog which explains what embalming is and why you don't need to embalm. Yeah, embalming into google, it will probably pop up with a poppy's blog. But but, more seriously, go onto our website and have a look around. There's loads of useful information there.
Speaker 1:That's absolutely fantastic, right well, thank you very much, and I think that's where we'll leave it. But, more seriously, go onto our website and have a look around. There's loads of useful information there. That's absolutely fantastic Right.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you very much, and I think that's where we'll leave it. Thank you, Great, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, what an amazing interview that was and a real eye-opener. I mean refrigeration in the garden and you can set up a business. That's just shocking, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's a bit of a worry, that's terrifying it is. It shocks me that there's absolutely zero regulation in that space. There's so much regulation in this country about so many other aspects and yet one of the most important points of disposing of your loved ones. There's nothing.
Speaker 1:No, and Claire, just you know she speaks so eloquently about the whole thing and so passionately.
Speaker 2:I think that's absolutely amazing. Yeah, that passion definitely shines through. Definitely got that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so thank you, claire. One of the things I want to bring up right now is the fact that there's a great and amazing book out there called the Last Kiss Not a Romance. Hopefully you can buy that from Redline Books or Wivenhoe Books in Colchester, or Wivenhoe for the Wivenhoe Books. That would be more sensible, wouldn't it? It is available on Amazon, but preferably, support your local bookshop is what we would always encourage. Our next interviews are going to be the Tom now I've got to get this right Baldidge Trust and it is Richard and Nikki who I went to chat with the other day, and they are amazing, incredible people and they raise money to help kids basically between 18 and 25, who face cancer or life-limiting illnesses, but what they're doing is filling the gap that the NHS should be providing essentially. But they're incredible people and I'm definitely going to be nominating them for the Colchester Compassionate Award, I think for this year.
Speaker 3:But don't tell them that okay, all right.
Speaker 1:so thanks very much, claire, and we look forward to hearing from you all soon. Thanks, bye now.
