Everything End of Life.
This podcast is dedicated to talking to experts and others about all aspects of death and dying. You know, that thing we don't really want to talk about!
As a hospice carer and former psychiatric nurse as well as writer and former Theatre director, I invite guests to talk about their roles in and what to expect in the last four weeks of life. What happens to the person dying, what help is there, what to do before and after the event.
Many of the families we go in to see have one thing in common and that is that they don't know what to expect. I thought that a Podcast may help and then discovered so much to explore that is of interest to people such as alternative funerals, what do Hospices actually do, what role do religions play?
So join me for the first interview as we begin this Podcast with Clinical Nurse Specialist Becky Rix where we grasp the nettle and discuss what happens to us generally in those last four weeks.
Time to explore "Everything End of Life".
Everything End of Life.
Dr. Tim Leeson on being a Spiritual lead in Palliative Care.
Dr. Tim Leeson joins me, Jason Cattrell, to unveil the layers of his role as the spirituality lead for St Helena. We delve into the essence of conversations in hospice settings, where the focus shifts from spirituality to heartfelt discussions about what the patient wants to talk about. He deftly explains the importance of person lead conversations that only touch on ones spiritual or / and religious questions. As he says "My team and I are not there to preach, we are there to listen and help reflect.
Our conversation transcends the confines of a typical podcast, touching on the professional dynamics of healthcare chaplaincy and the art of providing both structured and spontaneous support in palliative care. Everyone's needs are different and that is the most important thing for us all to recognise and listen to.
For those interested in what Palliative care looks like at home there is "The Last Kiss" (Not a Romance)
Available on Amazon now
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Kiss-Romance-Carers-Stories/dp/1919635289/ref=sr_1_1?crid=13D6YWONKR5YH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9._59mNNFoc-rROuWZnAQfsG0l3iseuQuK_gx-VxO_fe6DLJR8M0Az039lJk_HxFcW2o2HMhIH3r3PuD7Dj-D6KTwIHDMl2Q51FGLK8UFYOBwbRmrLMbpYoqOL6I5ruLukF1vq7umXueIASDS2pO91JktkZriJDJzgLfPv1ft5UtkdQxs9isRDmzAYzc5MKKztINcNGBq-GRWKxgvc_OV5iKKvpw0I5d7ZQMWuvGZODlY.fqQgWV-yBiNB5186RxkkWvQYBoEsDbyq-Hai3rU1cwg&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+last+kiss+not+a+romance&qid=1713902566&s=books&sprefix=The+Last+kiss+n%2Cstripbooks%2C107&sr=1-1
Hello and welcome to Everything End of Life with me, jason Cottrell and guests and, of course, debbie. We did a brilliant interview with Dr Tim Leeson, who is not was let's not put him away there just yet is the spiritual lead for St Helena and it's a really interesting role that he has and it's something that we want to explore actually within the interviews. I'm not going to say too much about that, but you listened to the podcast, didn't you? Did you discover anything new?
Speaker 2:I did. I learned that spiritualism isn't just a one-dimensional thing. Can I just say?
Speaker 1:it's not spiritualism.
Speaker 2:Oh, is it not?
Speaker 1:No spiritual lead is different from spiritualism. Spiritualism is like talking to people from what they thought a spiritual leader was and they said gandhi. I said no, that's not. That's not how I see dr tim leeson.
Speaker 2:He's more facilitating a conversation about how people feel so it's interesting you say that, because when I talk about spiritualism, I don't think about speaking to dead people. So it's interesting you say that because when I talk about spiritualism, I don't think about speaking to dead people. That's more about how people live their lives and how they perceive the next. Okay. Rather than just you know that one sentence.
Speaker 1:Well, I've got to tell you that Dr Tim Leeson gives a much better explanation of everything than either of us actually can.
Speaker 2:Clearly we need to listen to it again.
Speaker 1:No, he's really good, he's really professional and I think it's really a good listen too. I'll listen back to it twice now and I thought, hang on a minute, there's bits in there that even I missed and it's good to listen back to it, however. Ok, so that's coming up in a minute. But I've got some great news, some extraordinary news. My book has just been published. How exciting is that?
Speaker 1:It's on Amazon. It's called the Last Kiss, not a Romance, and it's about when I joined a hospice and it describes my journey there. But also it describes 15 visits to people in their homes. It's people in the last four weeks, more or less, of their lives. It's available on Amazon at $15.99. Now it says one to three months delivery, but I don't think that's actually correct. So ignore that bit, and if they do make it one to three months delivery, complain bitterly to Amazon. Okay, and if you do like the book, please do leave a review. Reviews all make us writers happy. So, without further ado, debs, oh, what did you think of the book, by the way? Dare I ask?
Speaker 2:I nearly said I haven't read it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I haven't read it in its new published form. I am, of course, very familiar with it from various drafts. Yeah, I should think you are. I've got you to read it.
Speaker 1:It looks really good, okay, thank you.
Speaker 2:That's all I wanted to hear.
Speaker 1:It looks really good and it's got some great endorsements, so I'm really pleased about that. All right, so without further, dr Tim Leeson, on being a spiritual lead and what that all means. Hello and welcome to the podcast, dr Tim Leeson, who is a spiritual leader. Hello, dr Leeson.
Speaker 3:Hello, thank you for having me. I should say I'm a spirituality lead, not a spiritual leader. A spiritual leader makes me sound like I'm the head of the Moonies, or something like that.
Speaker 1:I did ask a few people what do you think a spiritual leader is? And they said well, gandhi.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's not what I'm doing, sort of thing.
Speaker 1:So we're going to get the terminology right and so it's a spiritual, so it's a spirituality, lead, spirituality, lead, yeah, yeah, okay. So and Dr Tim, I've got to say to become a doctor, that must have. I mean, any doctor is a doctor. It takes how many years? Five, four, five.
Speaker 3:I think all in all it took me six years, but that was part time.
Speaker 1:Part time, yeah, yeah, yeah. You. You know, these days I can only imagine uh myself doing anything part-time, to be quite honest yeah, yeah, absolutely it's too much too much to do. So do please let me know a little bit about yourself. I mean certainly you. You work for St Helen, a hospice, that's right, um and uh. So I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about the journey that you had from qualifying, or carrying on doing what you were doing, and joining St Helena.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure. So I mean, actually, funnily enough, the doctorate that you just mentioned was a big part of that process. So I was a youth worker for about 18 years and about 12 years into that, embarked on the doctorate and the. The topic that I researched in my doctorate was well, I basically kind of compared the world of youth work to the world of chaplaincy and through that doctorate there's drilling going on outside. Is that all right? Can you hear me? Okay, I can't hear a thing. It's all right? Okay, that's good, that's good, um. So my doctor was dentist or anything. No, it's okay, good, um. So my doctor was, um, ultimately quite critical of a lot of the kind of culture of youth work that I'd got into and quite positive about kind of health care chaplaincy, um, as a way of engaging people.
Speaker 1:Let me just stop you there. So is that when you're saying critical, is that critical about the resources for the? Was it childcare? It's not childcare. Youth work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so specifically. So I was working in the context of kind of church-based youth work, of christian youth work, and that, specifically, is what I became quite critical about um, because I kind of wrote about it as creating a subculture, without realizing that it created a subculture and it's a subculture. That um, at its worst, um can stop young people from exploring their spirituality because it gives them pre-manufactured answers in the world of chaplaincy or spiritual care and the whole thing is, we're not coming in with pre-manufactured answers, we're coming in with questions and creating a supportive environment in which people can come to their own answers, um, or even sit with the lack of answers. Um, yeah, but the idea is that the patient really owns the conversation rather than me as and again, this is why you know, I wouldn't, I would never call myself a spiritual leader, because I'm not there to tell people what to believe or how to, you know, embody their spirituality. I'm just there to kind of ask the questions and create the environment in which people can discover that for themselves.
Speaker 1:Okay. Now that's a really important thing, is it? Because when anybody talks about spiritual or spiritual lead, the first thing they think is priest vicar, somebody's coming along to preach rather than to explore, and I think that's a really big difference for us to understand. In your role, you're not putting your beliefs onto anybody, because you can come across probably anybody with any religion, so you're not there to convert.
Speaker 3:Exactly that, exactly that. So language is really important and that's why. So you know, traditionally I would have been called a chaplain, and the reason why the hospice has given me the job title of spirituality lead rather than chaplain is because chaplain has those religious connotations. But the truth is so does spirituality lead that? You know, the word spirituality is quite a loaded word in its own right and means lots of different things to lots of different people.
Speaker 3:So how I introduce myself can be quite precarious at times, you know, depending on who I'm talking to. It's really a matter of choosing the right language and I do come across that preconception. Whether I call myself a chaplain or a spirituality lead. Often people will say, oh, that's not for me, I'm not religious. And trying to, kind of, without imposing anything on them, without trying to make people feel uncomfortable, but in you know, often very quickly, to try to explain of, without imposing anything on them, without trying to make people feel uncomfortable, but often very quickly, to try to explain that I'm not here to do anything religious. I'm not very religious either. It's kind of a. That can be a tricky thing to do sometimes.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a real fine line to to work with, isn't it? To say I'm here for your spirituality, but I'm not here to impose anything? Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, that's a difficult conversation, and one of the things I think is really interesting about your job is that I know from my own work that we come across such a range of different people, from paupers to princes. So I don't know who said it, but you've got to be able to walk with paupers to princes. So in I don't know who said it, but you've got to walk with, I'll be able to walk with paupers and kings and talk their own different language. So do you find that that just not just about their own priests conceptions about spirituality, but about the language that they use? You have to adjust your language to suit their map of the world?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's really important that you know I never pretend to be something other than what I am. So that was true in youth work as well. You know, people have an idea that you know the youth worker is, you know, a middle-aged man who dresses like a 14-year-old and talks like a 14-year-old, and actually young people see straight through that. Actually actually being authentic to yourself is really important, and the same is true here that you know, if I'm dealing with, for example, a buddhist patient, it wouldn't be right for me to pretend to be buddhist, you know, and to offer them buddhist prayers, um. Equally, if I was dealing with a muslim patient, I wouldn't pretend to be a muslim, um, so they would find that quite insulting, I think wouldn't they well?
Speaker 3:exactly, exactly. It's not right for anybody. It doesn't really help anybody. So, um, when it comes to specific religious needs, there are there's well, there's a number of different paths we can go down. One is that I've got a whole list of contacts from local faith leaders. So if we have a buddhist patient, I've got the local buddhist community on call can give them a ring. If there's a Muslim patient, I can call the imam, jewish patient call the rabbi.
Speaker 1:However it is, so your role is as a facilitator in many ways, is it?
Speaker 3:In some contexts, but actually more often than not, what people want is just a friendly, supportive environment in which to explore these questions, and most people don't necessarily want a well-versed religious leader, and the people who do usually have their own. They don't need me. The people who are really immersed in their religion have their own priest, have their own imam, have their own rabbi to call, and usually by the time I show up, they've already had a visit from their faith community. So more often than not, my role and my team's role is to just create an environment in which people can explore these things in an open-minded kind of a way.
Speaker 1:And I've got to ask, in a practical sense, if I was on the ward, what would I see you do so you'd come in first time meeting a patient, you or your team? What would I actually see? Uh, the patient experiencing so the the again.
Speaker 3:So depends on how I've come to know the patient. If the patient's been sent to me as a referral, that's one thing, and if I'm just wandering around the ward knocking on people's doors and introducing myself, that's another thing. So let's say it's the latter. If I'm just, if I've got an afternoon where I'm just on the ward, I might pop my head into a patient's door and say hi, I'm tim, I'm the spiritual care lead here. We haven't met before. And how are you doing? How are you settling in? Do you need anything? Do you want a cup of tea? And then I might start to ask questions about you know, where have you come from today? Where's home? Who have you got at home?
Speaker 2:Do you?
Speaker 3:have any family. Do you have kids? Do you have grandkids? What kind?
Speaker 3:of work do you do Soft engagement. That's right, and what I'm looking for is the moment at which a person's eyes light up and, ah, okay, that's the important thing, and for some people that's religion, but for lots of people it's, you know, their grandchildren or their work. So sometimes what's most important to a patient is just to talk about the past. They want to talk or they want to reminisce about being in their 20s, and sometimes people want specific religious things, like they want last rites or whatever it is. But what I'm doing in my conversation is I'm just chatting to them and my rule is I never mention religion.
Speaker 3:Unless they do so, I never say would you like me to pray for you? You know, would you like last rites? Whatever it is, I'll ask them you know, what's important to you, what's meaningful to you right now, and is there anything that I can do to support that? And sometimes they'll say something like you know, I'd love to go to church, but I'm not well enough, in which case I might say well, you know, we can, we might be able to help with that. You know, we can do some of the stuff that you want to do at church. We can do that here.
Speaker 1:Bring the church to you, sort of thing.
Speaker 3:Exactly, exactly. Obviously it's slightly different if I've had a specific referral, which happens quite often. So a nurse will say you know, send me a referral on our system here, and they'll say so. Or this person would like to talk to you, he's very anxious, he's not religious, but he just would like some company. At that point I've got a more targeted conversation, so I'll go in and I'll say I spoke to your nurse and she said you're Roman Catholic, is that right? Is there anything that we can do to support you with that? Or I say you know, she mentioned you've been feeling a little bit anxious and well, you know, tell me a little bit about that. What's going on there? Um, so if I've got a referral, I have a conversation starter ready to go, if you see what I mean. Um, yeah, but more often than not I would say it's just a kind of friendly introductory chat and we see where it leads us yeah, I mean, I really like, I really like that.
Speaker 1:What I really like was something you did. I don't know if you did it unconsciously there, but the very first thing you did was said I'm a spiritual lead, and then glossed over that and went straight into everything else, and that, I think, then just leaves it open for them. If they want to pick up on that during the conversation, then they can do that, and it sounds very much like what you described before is that you're there to facilitate the conversation that they want to have, rather than imposing anything upon them. I think that's really fascinating. So that's the role within the hospice. So now here's the tricky one Do you ever find yourself having to reach out past the boundaries and the walls of the hospice? Is that something, another part of your role?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I am employed by the hospice. I only work for the hospice, I'm not a minister or anything like that outside of the hospice. But as part of my role at the hospice I do visit patients at home. So we have the hospice in the home team who send nurses and doctors to visit patients at home and sometimes I get a referral from them. And also sometimes we'll have a patient on the ward and you know we have a good rapport and when they do end up going home they want to kind of keep in touch.
Speaker 3:So sometimes we do it that way as well and that's quite a different. You know. I mean in principle, in the spirit of the thing, it's very much the same as what we do on the wards, but in practice it can feel quite different. So on the ward we're much more fluid with the way that we work. So you know, we might just be in there for two minutes to make you a cup of tea and then leave you to crack on with your day. We might be there for an hour and a half if you want to have a really deep, meaningful conversation.
Speaker 3:At home we're a little bit more structured. So I'd usually go and visit somebody for an hour and maybe a quarter of an hour before the end. I might say, just to give you a heads up, I've got about 15 minutes left. Is there anything you want to talk about that we haven't spoken about. So it's a less boundaried when we visit at home and maybe a bit more structured, but ultimately we're still doing the same thing. We're still looking for, you know, what's most important to you. How can we support you in keeping that alive?
Speaker 1:You know, whatever that is, Okay, that's a really good explanation. I think the next thing I want to come on to is how do you get what you do out there? Because I know I'm a you know, former charge nurse in psychiatry but before I went to a hospice, not a clue what a hospice did, not really. I knew people went there. Are we presumed to die? But you know, it's so much more than that. People with life-limiting illnesses will be there for years.
Speaker 1:Well, not in the hospice, but supported by the hospice for years and years, um, and so even within the hospice, I know there's people who don't know what other, uh, people's roles are. For instance, single point is pretty well known throughout the hospice as doing what it does. This is, uh, being that connection with the community and all the nurses and doctors and everything else, um, but there are different roles of different people that need a little bit more explaining. So do you find yourself doing little seminars or teaching different parts of the hospice about your role so that they can actually refer to you and confidently know this is a thing for Tim or Tim's team?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So well, there's kind of two answers to that. There's a formal one and the informal one. The formal one is that I do teaching and training, so the nurses here on the IPU, as well as hospice, in the home nurses. They have their regular study days and I'm a contributor to those. I'll do a session on what is spiritual care and how to make referrals and that kind of stuff. But actually the informal one is much more important.
Speaker 3:And you know, I say to people, including our volunteers here, that visibility is nine tenths of the battle, because when you say to somebody, would you like to talk to a chaplain or would you like to talk to the spiritual care team, that question is met with all sorts of preconceptions about what that means good and bad. Yeah, we've talked about absolutely. Whereas if you say to someone, oh, tim's around, do you want me to go and grab him, then that's, it's a face that they know. You know they. They know that I am not kind of, I don't resent like a minister. Do you know what I mean? I'm not wearing a dog collar or anything like that. Um, they know that. They've seen me around on the ward before and that kind of thing, and the same is true with staff.
Speaker 3:Actually, if staff know that spiritual care are friendly, trustworthy, not here to proselytize or evangelize if they get to know me and the volunteer team on a personal level, then they have more confidence to make referrals to us. So actually there is that formal way, which is really important. But much more important is being visible, even if that means going to meetings where I don't really need to be, but just some visible presence. So people know who I am. So when it comes to it they have some confidence in making a referral, that it's safe and trustworthy.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's, that's brilliant. Now I've only got a few minutes of your time right, because I know it's, you know you, your time is quite precious at the moment, certainly, um, but there is one thing that I do want to move on to it, and that is, uh, professionalism and the fact that you are part of. I mean, there's a string of letters after your name that I just you, you know. I'm not quite sure what they all mean, but what I do know is that you're part of a professional body and that not all hospices have a spiritual lead. So this isn't a given thing. That's in every hospice and, from what I understand, it's a changing picture. So you're part of a particular organization.
Speaker 3:That's right. Well, so there's a number, so, um. So I'm part of what's called the ahpcc, which is the association of hospice and palliative care chaplains, um, which is a? Well, exactly what it sounds like it's an association, it's a network. Um. There is also a professional body called the ukbhc, the United Kingdom Board of Healthcare Chaplains. I am working towards membership of that at the moment. So to be a member of that, you need to have a minimum qualification, which is what I'm busy working on at the moment. That will be done this summer and that's really important. Actually, that membership in that body is really, really important, because chaplaincy, as it stands, is an unregulated industry, just like. You know just what I'm saying it's an unregulated industry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, and most of the chaplains who I know and who I've met are brilliant and professional and trustworthy, but actually the the risk that we have is that anybody can call themselves a chaplain, you know. Anybody can say, oh yeah, you know, I'm a chaplain and um present and present experience and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:I'll take you back 20 years ago when I was working well, 30 maybe years ago when I was working on an award for the elderly. We used to call it elderly care and we used to have a chaplain who would come in and they used to call him Mick the Vic. He wasn't a vicar, I don't know what his qualification was really, but he would come in and he would walk around the ward and he would shake people's hands and say hello, how are you, lovely? And then he moved to the next person. He wouldn't even wait for an answer and while I was just observing him one day and he walked to this one sassy old lady who said he said hello, how are you, how do you feel? And she said with my hands, who are you? And I just nearly fell apart. He was completely flummoxed because he hadn't got anything.
Speaker 1:You know he was lots of good intention but no particular philosophy to back up what he was doing. So we've come a long way from that. I mean, you know good people, you know road to hell is paved with good intention. So, yeah, this regulation, I mean, obviously, you think it's very important. I think it's very important, yeah, but how? I mean, how far down the line. Are we from mick to vick to what you do now across the country, is it? You know we're looking at a percentage of 80, 90 or so.
Speaker 3:I couldn't give you a number. I've got no idea what the number is, but I know that there is a. So I mean so anecdotally, you know chaplaincy is. You know there's military chaplaincy, university chaplaincy, school chaplaincy, you know prison chaplaincy, so, but so I'm only going to talk about healthcare chaplaincy because that's all I know about. But certainly in the world of healthcare chaplaincy there is a real push towards professionalism, and the College of Healthcare Chaplains, which is our kind of union which I'm a member of as well, is really encouraging people to professionalize. And so certainly it's not a legal requirement at the moment, it's not a professional requirement to be part of the UKBHC, to be registered, but I suspect it probably will be at some point in the not too distant future.
Speaker 3:I don't know, I might be wrong, but I suspect it probably will be. And for my money that's a good thing, because by being part of that board it means I'm abiding by a code of conduct. It tells people that I'm trained, that I've got experience, and it just creates trust in spiritual care.
Speaker 1:It's back up for you, I think, as a professional you know. I mean, we've got the Royal College of Nursing, We've got all sorts of different unions, but that's not at the moment seemingly the case for chaplaincy. So it will be really great to see that professional body get actually registered or recognised properly across the country you mentioned. Is this where you want to stay and develop this particular role for yourself, or are you planning on moving? Oh, that's what I was going to ask you. Are there hospices? Do they all have a spiritual lead?
Speaker 3:No, so most hospices will have some form of spiritual care, um, so some hospices, like st helena, will have a full-time chaplain or spiritual care lead or spirituality lead or whatever it is, um, but a lot of them will have part-time people. Um, and some hospices don't have any kind of or I mean, actually that's that's probably not right to say that they don't have any kind of or I mean, actually that's that's probably not right to say that they don't have any employed spiritual care provision, um, so they might rely on volunteers or, you know, local faith communities and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:I would be, you know, guarding my words on a podcast, but I'd be quite critical of that way of looking at things because it it is a profession and actually, with the best will in the world, um, spirituality is something which is so fragile and so potentially, you know, if done wrong it can cause harm. That actually having a professional employed spiritual care leader or chaplain, I think is really important because, again, of that thing of the code of conduct, the training, you know, having some trust that this is a person who knows how to have these kinds of conversations, I think that's where we were definitely 10 years ago with psychotherapy.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know, there wasn't. There wasn't a huge, you know, register of psychotherapotherapist. There is now a movement towards having all the psychotherapies registered. But you can become a relaxation therapist, for instance, charge £75 a week for somebody to come to you to have relaxation therapy, which is a bit of a rip-off because what they're not doing is teaching you how to manage your anxiety. You know they're just getting to relax once a week, it's not going to do a whole thing. So that professional body, I think, is really really important. So, yeah, just one very last thing and then I promise I'll let you go. That's fine. Is is you mentioned that you get referrals? Yeah, um, do people or can people self-refer to you? And if?
Speaker 3:so how do they do that? Yes, they can, yeah, yeah, so, and there's all sorts of different ways. So I mean, if you're here on the inpatient unit at the hospice itself, it's super easy. You just ask one of the nurses can I speak to the chaplain or the spiritual spirituality lead? Um, my volunteers are around most days and they'll pop in and introduce themselves and tell people, so people can say to them oh, I'd like to talk to somebody actually, and often they can manage that themselves, but if not, they can refer it on to me. And for people who are out in the community, usually the route in is through Single Point. You mentioned Single Point earlier on. So it's a phone number for the hospice that anybody can call at any time and they can make a referral to me and then I'll kind of contact you. That's usually the best way to do it. I mean, there are other ways. You can find my email address on our website, that kind of thing, if you want to, but single point's the way I get most of my referrals.
Speaker 1:Is there also? Would it be? You mentioned the UKBHC. Would there be a referral route through them, or is that not yet a doorway for them? Do?
Speaker 3:you know, I don't know the answer to that, that's a really good question. I'll have to look into it. No, that's no problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I don't know. That'd be really interesting to find out, actually, Certainly. I mean, there's a publicly available register of chaplains that anybody can go and look at.
Speaker 1:So I guess you could refer her through the website. But yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker 3:Where would people find that register?
Speaker 1:uh, just be. Yeah, if you google ukbhc, then uh, you take it to the website and your your other search engines are available clearly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right that's right but they're not as good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, listen, tim, it's been an absolute pleasure, uh, chatting with you and thank you, you know, I hope this is of uh, instruction to many people because, um, it is very different to what we would all immediately assume a spiritual lead to be, and, uh, you know, it's got to be a much more useful thing than having somebody preach at you. Somebody to explore with you is absolutely beautiful. Yeah, yeah, all right. So thank you very much, and I may, uh, come back to you next year and say, well, how's it going? I'd be great, yeah, I'd be delighted. And have we got all that register of stuff sorted out yet?
Speaker 3:nice, all right, sounds good thanks jason, thank you very much thank you so there you go, dr tim leeson.
Speaker 1:What a great interview. Love that. Are you a little bit clearer now?
Speaker 2:devs. I am much clearer now, thank you, thank you yes, me too.
Speaker 1:What a pair of clowns we can be Coming up in the next interview. We have Claire Montague from Poppy's Funerals, and in that we cover a whole range of different topics and she's a fascinating lady to speak to, especially on the subject of having transitioned from working for a hospice and taking that caring approach straight into the field of becoming the. Uh, oh, I think she's not the managing director, ceo, ceo of poppy's funeral. So you've got that really lovely transition going on and we describe that and we talk about all sorts of uh, some controversial issues and some not, but it's really a good listen. So, um, I thanks for listening to this particular episode. Don't forget, rush out, buy a book and, um, hopefully it won't be three months before you get the damn thing you don't have to rush out for amazon, though, darling.
Speaker 2:Oh no, yeah, good point, rush in, rush to your computer by a copy.
Speaker 1:All right, have a lovely time folks. Thanks very much.
