Everything End of Life.
This podcast is dedicated to talking to experts and others about all aspects of death and dying. You know, that thing we don't really want to talk about!
As a hospice carer and former psychiatric nurse as well as writer and former Theatre director, I invite guests to talk about their roles in and what to expect in the last four weeks of life. What happens to the person dying, what help is there, what to do before and after the event.
Many of the families we go in to see have one thing in common and that is that they don't know what to expect. I thought that a Podcast may help and then discovered so much to explore that is of interest to people such as alternative funerals, what do Hospices actually do, what role do religions play?
So join me for the first interview as we begin this Podcast with Clinical Nurse Specialist Becky Rix where we grasp the nettle and discuss what happens to us generally in those last four weeks.
Time to explore "Everything End of Life".
Everything End of Life.
Jenny Ruffle's story. Barrie's Suicide.
Can you imagine the pain of losing a loved one to suicide, compounded by a lack of resources, support, and societal understanding? We know this struggle is very real for many, and today's episode offers an intimate exploration of this heartrending journey. Our brave guest and my friend, Jenny Ruffle, shares her deeply moving story of her husband Barrie's battle with mental health issues and subsequent suicide. Her story is full of love, pain, transformation, and the crucial role of community mental health teams.
We also delve into the larger picture of the devastating impact mental health issues and suicide can have on families. The shock, guilt, and lack of support are a heavy burden that many carry, especially heightened by the current global pandemic. Jenny's story punctuates the urgent need for changes in Medical and Mental Health provision as well as increased support for those going through these unimaginable circumstances.
As we end this deeply impactful episode, we extend our heartfelt wishes for a peaceful holiday season and a hopeful new year.
Useful contacts :-
SOBS Survivors of Bereavement by Suicide. 01159 441 117
Papyrus Prevention of suicide by young people. 02920 789 759 or 0800 068 4141
Cruse Bereavement car and support 0808 808 1677
Samaritan's 0115 944 1117
EMDR Stands for Eye Movement Desensitisation Reprocessing and can help with complicated Grief processes. You can look up local therapists but make sure that they are properly accredited.
Lastly, I'm not an expert on anything much but I know a lot of experts in many things so if you get stuck you can email me at djcatrell@hotmail.com and I'll try to respond as soon as I can.
For those interested in what Palliative care looks like at home there is "The Last Kiss" (Not a Romance)
Available on Amazon now
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Kiss-Romance-Carers-Stories/dp/1919635289/ref=sr_1_1?crid=13D6YWONKR5YH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9._59mNNFoc-rROuWZnAQfsG0l3iseuQuK_gx-VxO_fe6DLJR8M0Az039lJk_HxFcW2o2HMhIH3r3PuD7Dj-D6KTwIHDMl2Q51FGLK8UFYOBwbRmrLMbpYoqOL6I5ruLukF1vq7umXueIASDS2pO91JktkZriJDJzgLfPv1ft5UtkdQxs9isRDmzAYzc5MKKztINcNGBq-GRWKxgvc_OV5iKKvpw0I5d7ZQMWuvGZODlY.fqQgWV-yBiNB5186RxkkWvQYBoEsDbyq-Hai3rU1cwg&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+last+kiss+not+a+romance&qid=1713902566&s=books&sprefix=The+Last+kiss+n%2Cstripbooks%2C107&sr=1-1
Hello and welcome to Everything. End of Life with me, jason Cottrell and guests, and this week my guest is going to be Jenny Ruffle, talking about her husband, barry, ending his own life. Now, we're going to keep this intro kind of simple. Firstly, I'm going to take a leaf from my friend, martin Rudis, from Cruise and ask you that, if you are triggered by any of this is, first of all, just take a deep breath and relax and find a safe space.
Speaker 1:If you are triggered by any of this, I just want to give you two numbers out there and survivors of bereavement by suicide sobs, and their telephone number is 01159441117. Another number is papyrus, which is the prevention of suicide by young people although I'm sure they're pretty happy to talk to you about anybody and their telephone number is 02920789759. Now I'm going to put all of this in the description, obviously, of the podcast. I will have Debs back with me later for the outro, which will tell you about what's coming up next, but for now I want to pay tribute to Jenny, because she's an amazing lady, and I'll just let her tell her story in her own way. Hello and welcome to everything. End of life with me, jason Cottrell, and this week I have Jenny Ruffle, who's an I wouldn't say an old work colleague, but a work colleague that we used to be together.
Speaker 1:What three years ago in the virtual world. Yeah so over.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just over.
Speaker 1:And we're here to talk about Barry's suicide, your husband of long standing. So I'm going to ask you a difficult question, and that is can you remember when you met?
Speaker 3:I do remember when we met. Yeah, it was 1976. I was at a party with some friends and, yeah, I met him. I did know him briefly because he actually worked with my mum. What was he doing, my mum? They worked at Kent Blacksip and Barry was the computer manager there.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's a big building for him. My mum was a telephonist at the time so I knew of him, knew of him okay, and then you got married, or I mean obviously not just like the next day, but there was a kind of court chip and everything went fine, just a normal kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 1979 we got married.
Speaker 1:So three years later, not that far later then. Hey, and when did kids come along, dare I?
Speaker 3:ask Alexander was born in 1982. Okay, dominic was born in 1984 and Christie was born in 1988.
Speaker 1:1988. So no money between those periods because it all got spent on the kids. I'm kind of guessing and still paying for it now. Yeah, so but Barry was a kind of. You know, I talked to June, our mutual friend, and she was saying he was quite a happy, going, lucky sort of guy. Is that what that described him? Not really. He was good with kids, you see.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely, and I don't. I think it's very difficult, isn't it with mental health, because you kind of have that period of reflection where you look back and you think did I miss something? I don't notice? But it really wasn't until 2006 that I realised something wasn't as it should be and he started to become quite unwell mentally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that is an interesting thing when we look back, because we just presume people tend to commit suicide because of a long-standing depression or a depression, and that wasn't the case in this instance, absolutely not. Absolutely not so that I mean. So tell us a bit. I mean between 2006 and 2007,. I think there was an incident in 2007?.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he became In 2007,. Obviously, I was more aware that something wasn't right. He was beginning to get very depressed. He didn't sleep and I think that was the first time that I actually had to take him to the doctors and he then had to go into antidepressants Right and unfortunately, because of the medication that he was given on, he became very manic. Just well, I couldn't trust him, I couldn't leave him, and he made several attempts on his life then in 2007.
Speaker 1:And what was the support?
Speaker 3:like he got back then the support then was absolute, brilliant. I couldn't fault it. Yeah, a few issues with the GP, but he was referred to the community mental health team and literally there was an incident one day where he tried to take his own life and I had an emergency number to ring and literally within an hour I had two psychiatric nurses stand on the doorstep to help him. They looked at obviously taking me as an impatient, but didn't think that was the right thing. So I had him at home with me but obviously had to watch him. Yeah, like a hawk. Really I couldn't trust him.
Speaker 1:I don't know how long ago that was. I moved like weeks, months.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, they sent somebody in twice a day, twice a day, somebody coming to talk to him to give him his medication, because he wasn't allowed to have his own medication. Okay, and that was, I think, about the February time, and it was about three or four months before we kind of saw some sort of breakthrough where he started to recover really.
Speaker 1:Yeah when you say recover was that getting back to his old self or becoming a different sort of new self.
Speaker 3:I think the problem was that I was aware, obviously, that I had to be careful with him. I couldn't trust him and although he was, I would say, reasonably well and he could go back to work and he could cope on a day-to-day basis, I think I became very protective towards him. So I think, particularly with the children, if there was anything that I knew that he would find upsetting or he wouldn't be able to deal with very well, I did end up trying to keep stuff on him so.
Speaker 3:I knew that it wouldn't put any pressure on him.
Speaker 1:So in a sense your relationship has changed at this time.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely, and you're almost becoming like a carer for him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and so that was through 2007, 2008?.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then kind of beyond a bit.
Speaker 3:I think things were different. Yeah, you know, our marriage was different, our life was different and I think probably whether he saw it as anything different. But for me obviously it was me protecting the children as much as anything and obviously from that point I tried to protect him. I suppose I didn't make sure that there was nothing that would cause him to become unwell again. Yeah, and obviously he was on medication by then that he had to. He took, obviously every day.
Speaker 1:So that I mean that must have been quite a strain for you. Did you get other help at that time? Was it just friends helping?
Speaker 3:No, I didn't get any help at all. No, and I think that's the thing I think with anybody who suffers from mental health, I think in terms of the support the family support, care, support, whoever they are. It's hard work and I think the trouble is also when somebody has made an attempt at suicide. You always have that in the back of your mind and there was many a time where I came home, stood on the doorstep and took a deep breath because I didn't know what I was going to walk into.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah.
Speaker 3:And that. So I suppose in terms of me you're kind of like in that fight or flight situation all the time, because you're unhyperactive, because you weren't.
Speaker 1:That must be so wearing.
Speaker 3:It's hard work, yeah, but I think I think I've got used to it in some respects.
Speaker 1:So you developed a different pattern of behavior, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And I think my problem was that I didn't really speak to anybody else about it. You know, my family knew, obviously, that he'd been unwell, friends knew that he'd been unwell, but I think the assumption was that he was back to very, he was back to normal, yeah, but he was.
Speaker 1:But he wasn't, so I think you know, as a you know. I've been worked in psychiatry staff nursing charging us, you know, during those particular years, but somewhere completely different up in Peterborough, and during that time there was actually quite a reasonable amount of community support for people. But still they were only just beginning to get into this kind of supposed holistic response where you weren't looking at just the person but you were looking at the whole family. But it kind of sounds like they hadn't got to that point with you?
Speaker 3:No, I don't think so. I mean it would. In terms of when we were in crisis, they were coming into the home so obviously they could see our environment that we lived in and how things were, but it was obviously mainly around him and making sure that he kept well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so everything ticked along nicely until COVID, really, so that was what 2020.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 2019, 2020.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think 2020.
Speaker 3:When we'd been in lockdown and obviously we couldn't see the children, couldn't see the grandchildren, same as everybody else. You know we were no different to everybody else, but I realised, I think the summer of 2020, that he was struggling.
Speaker 1:So what did you see that made you think that?
Speaker 3:He wasn't sleeping and he kept saying to me I can't sleep, and so to me that was obviously a bit of a warning sign.
Speaker 3:Something was happening and I tried. I mean, I was obviously still working and he was doing bits of work. He wasn't doing as much as what he normally did, but he, I tried to encourage him to make sure that he was walking and getting fresh air. But he was neglecting himself as well and I think if I hadn't of not so be hard on him, but it was making sure he got up in the morning as he washed. Obviously he was fed, but his appetite was going. He didn't. He didn't really eat an awful lot, so he was just changing things, but just to see this decline and what's an appearance of all time.
Speaker 3:I think it got really bad about the October. I realised that things were getting so. He he'd been, I think, see the GP? No, actually, he hadn't. He'd phoned them and it was a bit of a brief call and I'll will up your medication, we'll give you some sleeping tablets which he took. But then it was really the Christmas, christmas 2020. We were in absolute crisis with no help. There was, there was nothing out there.
Speaker 1:So it's worth saying, but because of the COVID.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Everybody struggled and I don't think anybody really knew what to do. If you can't have direct contact with people, where do you go with that?
Speaker 3:I remember at the Christmas, christmas Christmas day was really bad, and then I think it was just the way it was the weekend and then obviously the back holidays and and I remember ringing the doctor the first day that I had the opportunity to do that and speaking to them and they, to be honest, they weren't really that interested. It was kind of a case of, well, let me speak to him, what he sounds okay to me and they gave him some website to log on to which would help him. He didn't have capacity to do that, he just wasn't enough to do that.
Speaker 1:It sounds like I mean I hate to use the term because you know his fellow NHS workers, if you like, but they are under there a lot of stress in other areas, but it sounds like you were just getting phobbed off with. We've got better things to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think so, but you know to me he'd got a history of suicide.
Speaker 1:And the GP knew this, or was this a different GP?
Speaker 3:No, no, no, he had to have annual reviews. He used to go annually to get his medication checked and obviously just check on his progress, but I think because that'd been quite a period of time in between. They just put him down as depressed, and if he's gonna get depressed, he might get a bit more depressed and that's a really odd one, actually, because I never think of him as being depressed that wasn't the word that I would have used it was more like a mania.
Speaker 1:Had you tated?
Speaker 3:Yeah, because he couldn't sleep. It was kind of like this spiral of I don't know, but he was. I wouldn't have said, oh, he was terribly depressed because he thought it wasn't how it came over.
Speaker 1:So would it been a sort of an underlying panic, a kind of all constant something. Something's wrong, so I've got to do something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I know that he recognised obviously that he wasn't well, but obviously, from my point of view, he was very tearful, he cried a lot and yeah, I mean it was really difficult, I think, for me because I was really the only person seeing him.
Speaker 1:So would you say he was emotionally distressed more than because of the lack of sleep and I think in emotions he must have been going through that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, more than yeah. I just never looked back and think oh my god, he was so depressed because it wasn't like that.
Speaker 3:That's not how it was. You know, and I think you know, even speaking to the GP and trying to expand it to them, because obviously they didn't want to see him, he couldn't go to the surgery, you know there were no referrals to mental health team and had there been, it would have been months waiting. Anyway, you know, anything with the only other option we've got is we present to the, you know, go to the hospital as an emergency. But I'd heard other people where that has happened and all they do is give them something to, I don't know, diozepam or something to tide them over overnight and just still the situation there. And then this was a long-term thing, this wasn't an overnight thing.
Speaker 1:No, that's the problem. There is no these days. There is no kind of casualty for mental health, or it doesn't seem to be in in the service that I see. I mean, I'm out of the game now, okay, but in you know, a long time ago, when I was in psychiatry there, you know there would be the acute ward where you could go and have an emergency consultation and they might be kept in overnight and then see a psychiatrist the next day and then there'd be an assessment made. But that service doesn't seem to be available now and that's that must be.
Speaker 1:So there you are and it's all on your shoulders and you're working yeah, so and in our job. There we are. We're going out at end of life care and trying to give everybody else reassurance and there that's what you and hope and well, not well hope for the families. You know that they get through this whole period, but it must have been having to go and do that and then come home and, as you say, pausing at the front door every time. What a stress. Deep breath, yeah breath, oh my gosh yeah, and sadly.
Speaker 3:You know, it was the one day that I walked in and it happened yeah, it happened yeah do you want to take a breath no, no you're okay, okay, all right, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you walked in and I don't know I don't want to hang around over this kind of morbid but he came in and there he'd hung himself in the garage yeah, in the garage, and but you've walked in immediately. Hadn't did it, did it? Just hit you straight away at something, wasn't right?
Speaker 3:and it's really strange because I think I'd got up, obviously, to go to work that morning. So I'd got up about half past six, seven o'clock and he actually came into the bathroom when I was in there and I just said, how have you been? Because he was sleeping in the other room, yeah, and he said, oh, I've had an awful night and and anyway. So I got ready to work and and I didn't know, I didn't panic that much because the day before, which was the Saturday, and he'd been out in the garden doing some bits out in the garden, which was a really good thing for him. It's kind of like a positive thing that he'd actually motivated himself to go and do something.
Speaker 3:So for me I kind of had that oh, he was fine yesterday, it wasn't, but he was never good in the mornings, mornings because he's had such a terrible night. He was never good in the weather. Day went on, he got slightly brighter, but obviously and, yeah, walking in, and I kind of thought you know, as you do, it really is the like looking about, and then obviously I realized what had happened and you went to the garage to find yeah well, I just went out the back door and I could see in the garage.
Speaker 1:That's harsh now that we'll talk about this in a little while. But there's the EDMR, is it? It's just a kind of EMDR.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1:I have to get these things.
Speaker 3:I'm movement to, since I yeah, that's favorite.
Speaker 1:I mean I will have it in the notes for people if they, you know they need that kind of thing. But so that you know. Wow, where do you go with that then, such a horrible day, and I'm presumed people came to your aid well, I, I don't know.
Speaker 3:So I can remember kind of Running around the house thinking, did I actually see that? You know it? Kind of doubted myself and I kind of like had to go back and think maybe I just didn't see it, you know. But obviously you know it was what I saw. So I rang 999 and this poor I can remember, I it's, I could, I can walk you through the day step by step. I can remember where we went when we worked. I can remember just everything about that day step by step, by step by step. It's like it's imprinted in my head and Lovely parametric come out. It was very quick, I have to say, and obviously you know you come in. And then the police arrived and and it was just a bit manic really, because I seem to be people everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they kind of took over, took him down, one presumes and yes they did and the police photographer has to come in.
Speaker 3:There was obviously certain steps that they have to follow. I have to obviously and Not think that suspicious in any way. Yeah, that he intended to take his own life.
Speaker 1:And that's an interesting.
Speaker 3:Took his phone. They would talk on his phone. They want to look on his iPad and look at his search history to see what he'd been searching for and that's the thing, isn't?
Speaker 1:it's an interesting thing, because the net day before, no sign of this at all. No, nothing.
Speaker 3:And the the really strange thing about it was was when, because we'd spoken to the GP a couple of times and she'd she'd said to him you know, barry, are you suicidal? And he and he, like, looked at me and said, well, what's she? Tell what? She asked me that for and I said, because she needs to know. Yeah, of course I'm not.
Speaker 1:I kind of think have you had suicidal thoughts? Would have been a better question, you know, but yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so yeah, but it's, you know, I mean I have since, obviously, being to a support group for victims of suicide and was that set up by the police or by no?
Speaker 1:it's sops.
Speaker 3:It's called sops. So, by this of bereavement through suicide. Okay, and For me that I found it very helpful because people get it. Yeah, I think with death you know, particularly like in terms of hospice care, it's kind of you go through a process, yeah, and is there's an expectation that somewhere at some point somebody's going to die. Yeah, you know you walk your family, the patient and the family walk them through the process, but obviously it was suicide. It's complete different.
Speaker 3:Yeah you know, and a normal bereavement group wouldn't have done me because it's like people don't get it. You don't get it until you do you. Really, unless you go through it, you don't get it. Yeah, because it brings up so many different emotions and for me, the worst one was anger.
Speaker 1:I was so angry really yeah, really awful, awful. So who are you angry at everybody, everybody.
Speaker 3:Just get out the way. Yeah, no, I mean obviously with him because of it's Because you have so many different emotions that go through your head. You know it's kind of. You know I thought he loved me, I knew he loved his children, I knew he loved the grandchildren and it's you know my children were saying to me why has he done this?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I couldn't answer that, I, I couldn't give them any answers. You know, I don't know, you know, and you have to, over time, just accept that that you will never get answers, because you there was, you could, there was just stuff that you would never know.
Speaker 1:I mean and what you said I think it's very permanent is that he did love his children, his grandchildren. That doesn't mean he was thinking them at that particular moment. No it's like or you you know I wasn't thinking. You know, if you're welfare or anything that's, I don't think that's negligence, I think that's just blinked us.
Speaker 3:You know, somebody's got a focus part of the illness yeah, it's part of the illness, yeah, and and the thing is, you know it's going to the sport group is shocking in some respects because, again, you know people. A lot of people have been through the same process of Family members. You know that their behaviour changes and you go through that whole process of Worrying about them, caring about them, and then you've got other people where it just comes out the blue.
Speaker 3:They don't see any signs at all. You know, and so for them it's just a shocking because it's you know, you weren't.
Speaker 1:There was no expectation of it at all, I think, sadly to say that what I'm hearing From from many other quarters is that's happening a little bit more, even in teenagers, and it's because there's this whole internet thing where they're lost in a different world, but they're all they they present.
Speaker 1:Well, and then when the police find their phones as they took Barry's phone by, there was anything it's then they find a whole plethora of stuff which is and this is completely different to that, but you know that sudden shock, uh, and I asked you, I remember asking you a question which you, uh, you gave me a surprise answer for. I said, um, did you blame yourself? And you said you know, did you see, or was it, did you? I blame myself. Yeah, 100, 100%, that was the term you used, and I went.
Speaker 3:What's? Yeah, but I think the thing is with that, because I had eMDR therapy. I had it after about six months. I had eMDR therapy and she asked me the same question you know about, like blame, and I, and, and I think she was shocked because she said to me oh uh, what, why do you say that? And I said because there was nobody else. There was nobody else that could help us, because we were, we were on because of kovat, we were on our own, that it was like my whole support network had disappeared. Um, I didn't see the children, you know, and we were videoing calling the children to keep in touch with them, and they were seeing dad.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think let's just stop there for a sec.
Speaker 3:Okay, it's gonna come in.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, I'm just gonna pause that there.
Speaker 3:Okay, so we're back yeah, um, yeah, I it really was, because I I kind of like felt as if I was completely on my own. Yeah, I, there was no support from the GP, there was no support from the community mental health team, I didn't have my family around me, you know, I wasn't seeing my friends. So for me, at that particular time I kind of felt like I was, it was 100 my responsibility to keep him well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you couldn't do that, but then you must know that that was largely out of your control.
Speaker 3:Well, I think the questions that the Therapist asked me was um, can you be responsible for him being a 67 year old man who's been brought up in an environment of men don't talk about things like that and you know just his general upbringing? Um, so there's factors that he obviously growing up I don't know about that Kind of decided how he became as a man. Yeah, and you know he wasn't good at talking, you know, and there was other issues that he he kept buried. You know he wasn't good and that that could be said that it was because of, you know, his generation and lots of other things. I think today, younger men, it's, it's becoming a thing, isn't it for them to talk about mental health and if they are feeling depressed or something that they discuss and it's, yeah, this.
Speaker 1:I've got a friend, fraser Morgan, and he does this men's group over the university. I think it is, and that's something you would not have heard of 10 years ago 20 years ago men's group which just would not be a thing, but you know.
Speaker 3:I don't think. I have to be honest if Barry had been offered something like that, I don't think he would have gone.
Speaker 1:No, because for him that would have been a bit of a failure to have to accept help like that and you know that is for the younger men of today, that they have that ability or that, the opportunity to be able to say, well, yeah, I am feeling stressed or depressed.
Speaker 3:I mean, the interesting thing about that is is it going to stop young men from dying from suicide, Not dying from?
Speaker 1:suicide. Yeah, well, I mean there's. You know there are groups. They are not. Put the groups on the fronts of the description. They are there to help prevent young men, anybody, committing suicide before the age of 35, but also in general. So yeah, I'll put the telephone number out for that. And there's also the Samaritans and crews. But then sometimes you know if you're feeling really isolated and alone, what motivates you to pick up the phone.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I yeah, and that was the ridiculous thing about the GP. You know saying to Barry well, I'm going to give you this website if you log on to there, which it was like a former CBT really for him to, but he couldn't do that, he didn't have capacity to do that. That hadn't been for me, it wouldn't have eaten.
Speaker 1:He wouldn't have got out of bed. Right.
Speaker 3:You know it was that that kind of you know that he was so poorly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, something that you also said was that the kids had kind of known this was coming, because they'd said to you it wasn't the case of if, mum, but when. Yeah, and you, you got surprised me, yeah.
Speaker 3:So that surprised me. But I mean before, probably just after after Christmas, he actually died on the 21st of February, but that that period, january, february I actually said to my daughter you're going to have to tell the boys that does not well, yeah, because I hadn't, we hadn't said they didn't even know that he wasn't well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We hadn't, I hadn't told them and he obviously wouldn't tell them, but I knew that they needed to know that because it was kind of, I suppose, from my part that if something happened it would have been mum. Why didn't you tell us, even though they couldn't do anything because we're in lockdown, they couldn't come and visit or, and even the day that he died, my eldest son lived in lives in Stowe Market and he had to get permission from the police to come to mine. That's just horrendous.
Speaker 1:He was.
Speaker 3:He was crossing over from Suffolk into a six for one thing.
Speaker 1:And I think you know one of the things about that is you said that you were. You know you felt a lot of anger and the whole COVID thing. And then when you heard about all this, the party stuff- in in Downing Street and that kind of also made your blood boil. If your son can't, is that to get permission to come during a moment like that that? You know that must really wrangle. You know I'm not making any political statements?
Speaker 3:No, and I think that is the thing you know. It's like like we spoke. You know there was, however, many thousands of people that died because of COVID, but it's how many people are subsequently going to have died or are going to die because of the consequences of COVID, because they didn't get the right treatment and they weren't seeing specialists.
Speaker 1:And I think I always say with Barry you know, he he didn't die from COVID, but he certainly died because of it, because of it Because the services were essentially cut off, yes, and they couldn't really see in reality where he was on that timeline of his own, of his own demise.
Speaker 3:And the coroner. When we went to inquest the coroner actually I mean she she said you know that this needs to be taken further, because this poor man should have got help.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:But the police, I mean the police sergeant that came the day that he died. He, he said to us, you know he said I'm coming to the coroner's court practically every day now because of, because how bad things have got.
Speaker 1:Things, yeah, things are very.
Speaker 3:And I think you know the police stopped, didn't they attending mental health issues, because I think it was getting out of hand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there is a big thing now where they're saying because of resources, lack of resources, make of that what you will, but they're having to say we're not going out to mental health cases because that's not a hard job.
Speaker 2:This is a danger to life.
Speaker 1:Unless there's a danger to life. That's right, and they're not social workers or psychiatric nurses. And yet the resources don't seem to be there for a a hit spot of psychiatric nurses or social workers.
Speaker 3:And I suppose for me I can see that balance because the first time I mean Barry couldn't have received better care. The care he received was absolutely first class. You know, it was quick, it just was absolutely perfect for him. It was back in 2007. 2007. But so for me I kind of the difference was shocking.
Speaker 1:Absolutely shocking. Yeah, that's a real shame. It's a real shame, okay so drawing out of that whole particular area, and let's go on to you. And so how did that affect you over the coming months, and what kind of support did you then get?
Speaker 3:My friends were absolutely superb. I couldn't fault them. My children, obviously, you know they they were grieving as well. So it was hard for me because I was trying to support them and with their children, with my grandchildren, and I think we're all just trying to make sense of it. You know, because you just your head can't, can't get round it. You know because it's just, I think it's, it's such a shock. Not only do you have the grief, you have the shock as well, and then obviously you've got, you know there's so much more, because the police were involved and the coroner was involved and you kind of have to go through this process of just trying to sort the system out as well.
Speaker 1:That's true, so how have I looked at?
Speaker 3:it. That was hard work.
Speaker 1:To get through it. Yeah, yeah, oh, my God. So then? So you've got this busy, almost looping thing going on in your mind of having to go over and over. Have I did I do something wrong, Is there, you know?
Speaker 2:is there something?
Speaker 1:else I could have done. Yeah, and that's kind of almost like beating yourself up a little bit, absolutely, yeah, yeah. So how did you get out of that looping? I'm not sure that I have.
Speaker 2:If I'm honest, I don't think I have yeah, still there.
Speaker 3:It's easier, yeah, but I think that's something that I've had to adjust to and accept that. You know that is the way it is. There's answers that I will not get. I know that. Yeah, as hard as it is, yeah, and I you know, because I you just won't, and that's something I've had to come to terms with. But my life is different. You know, my life has just changed.
Speaker 1:Just changed.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and the you know and now. So now you've got a kind of a new life. Yeah, you had that ED. Go and tell me again EMDR. Emdr. I get it wrong every time. Emdr, which I'll you know once again, I'll put in the notes in the front description. And that helped a lot.
Speaker 3:Yes, it did. I had, I think, 12 sessions. But again, the thing is, with that, it was all on video link. You know, it wasn't obviously I couldn't meet the person because we were still under COVID restrictions at the time. But she, yeah, she was lovely, she was very matter of fact about all you know, but very obviously more geared to me, trying to help me rather to deal with what happened. Well, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:It's not her grief, is it so?
Speaker 3:she can be a more abstract.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and so she was a therapist, psychotherapist, or a therapist.
Speaker 3:Oh, she was an EMDR practitioner, so it's a whole discipline. So she was kind of like yeah, I think they have to be specifically trained.
Speaker 1:And it's specifically for trauma and sound.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and she was dealing, I know she which I kind of felt a bit odd at the time because she was telling me that a lot of people were suffering because they'd been locked in the house for such a long time they were getting like they couldn't go outside. They're trying to go to supermarkets because of this COVID thing. So she was dealing with a lot of that at the time as well.
Speaker 1:A very strange sort of agoraphobia that's based on, on actual fear. Really, yeah, I'd, rather than perceived fear, yeah, so alright, well, and here you are now. So you didn't come back to work because, and we missed you dreadfully, I've got to say All the girls missed you. I'm not a girl, but clearly you know the girls missed you.
Speaker 3:I did consider it, I did consider going back. But I I suppose had it been a different job it might be slightly different. But I think having to go back to end of life care it was. I mean there would have been so many things that could have triggered you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really, I think that was a very wise decision. So now you're spending a lot of your time. Like you know, last time I was talking to you you were off to do Pilates. So let's go to Pilates. That's nice. I'm only starting to take up yoga at 61, and I'm thinking I quite like it. Actually I've had an idea this before. So your life has changed and you're spending more time, one presumes, with the kids and the grandkids and the other govind things over.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I made my life quite difficult actually, because it was really hard for me because Barry died at home, yeah, and so to me, my whole, as much as I loved the house we lived in and I thought we were happy, all of a sudden I didn't wanna be there, right. I'm like I can't live here anymore. I don't want to live here anymore. So I very quickly put the house up sale and so it's been a bit of a traumatic three years really. But I've now settled and, yeah, just picking up my life again, really, you know, and I think it's hard because I, for me, I'd never lived on my own before, you know, at 62.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'd kind of obviously been at home with my parents. And then you get married and then you know we were married for 42 years and all of a sudden I was on my own. I found that very hard.
Speaker 1:So are you kind of finding out who Jenny Ruffle is now?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think you do, don't you? Because as a marriage, you become part of that partnership and there's a bit of give and take and then all of a sudden it's like gosh, what am I gonna do? Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. And it's interesting, not just for married couples, but when you know, people die naturally and then they've gotta find a new role for themselves, yeah, but also for carers of long-term patients who, when the care stops because the person they're caring for has died, they've gotta suddenly find a new them. Yeah, you know a new role for them, yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's kind of taken over your life, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because it's become. I know, when I was looking after my mum, I did that for eight years and then, when she was there, there was this I was talking to a guy called Martin Rodis from Cruise A brilliant guy and he was talking about the grieving brain and the fact that we get into these routines where we expect to see the person there every day, over years and years and years, the same routines, and whilst we consciously know when they've gone, that they've gone, our brain's still trying to catch up with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and so that takes that length of time for your brain to go hang on. We've got a new routine here We've got and that can be really psychologically over years, I kind of think.
Speaker 3:And then you start to find a new you you know which is really interesting. Yeah, yeah, and I think I'm not so angry now. I don't show everybody. Anybody gets in my way, just get out of my way.
Speaker 1:You find it supermocky. It's going to be intolerant.
Speaker 3:I've turned around to be quite a nice person again, because I wasn't for a while we were no well you know, any wonder, any wonder.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, jenny, listen, it's been an absolute pleasure, as always, speaking with you and thank you for being so frank and honest and I kind of hope that does help some other people to see that it's not just always depression where these things happen.
Speaker 1:They can come out of the blue not entirely out of the blue, but really still a little bit out of the blue, and there's the whole process to go on. And they're not the only ones, so you're not the only one out there. All right, there's plenty of help out there If you need it and help for the relatives of people who need help.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would, if you do sadly go through, you know, have anybody that dies from suicide. You know, sobs are superb. They, you know, and they get it. That's the only way I could describe it is that they understand what you're going through, whereas I think anybody in a normal bereavement they don't get it.
Speaker 1:So I'll definitely put sobs up on the description for us. So, I've got a lot of writing to do now. You've given me a lot of work to do too, so it's okay. Anyway, all right, thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Jenny.
Speaker 1:You're welcome, chose, and very best of luck in the future. So that was quite an interview. You know, it's not often that you get the privilege of speaking to somebody about that sort of subject and then being so candid and open. What did you think?
Speaker 2:I was really touched by it, to be honest, and I think obviously it's a tremendously sad story.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But the way Jenny tells it is so open and honest and it's she doesn't. I know she says that she's angry about what happened, but there's no anger in her, if that makes sense. Doesn't come across that way, no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's lovely. She is well on her path. You can never get over something like that completely, I'm sure, but she's on well on her way to being a much more Jenny Ruffle person again. So that's, you know. That's a really good thing.
Speaker 2:I think it just becomes part of you, becomes part of the person that you are. There's that saying isn't there? That doesn't? What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, clearly nobody's had a stroke and they've not. But yeah, and that's saying, have they.
Speaker 2:But do you know what I mean Intrinsically, things that happen to us, they don't just get put in a box and put in the loft no. They are part of us. They are part of who we are going forward.
Speaker 1:They've become part of our character yeah, absolutely so that was amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, jenny. And what we've got coming up is quite awesome. We've got Dr Liz O'Reardon, the breast cancer surgeon, who got breast cancer not once, but I think it's for ice just to add insult to injury. But you know what she didn't do, what she didn't roll over. Like a lot of doctors in the past have been a bit scared when they got such a diagnosis and fear maybe they might be taken off the register. Liz seems to have taken that, embraced it with both hands and made a flag that she can fly for other patients like herself from the other side of the fence, from the patient side of the fence. I think that's a really difficult thing to have done at the time.
Speaker 2:I think probably one of the things she talks about is I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was like she had her patients had asked her a question if I take this drug, what will it do for me, how will it make me feel? And she'd answered it in a very practitioner kind of way. But actually, when she was then faced with this particular element of drug or treatment or whatever, she was like, oh my God, I've been telling my patients this and actually the actual fact is something very different but, that can be really powerful for a patient.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a classic thing that she said to me was that and she'll probably bring this up because it made me die it was that she would say to a patient whatever you do, don't Google anything, stop Googling, don't Google. And of course, the first thing she did when she was diagnosed was get away and Google everything she possibly could. So that's quite a turnaround. So from the other point of view and that's lovely. So she's going to be talking about that she's amazing lady. She's got vlogs everywhere can look her up Dr Liz O'Reard and she has written a couple of books, most recently Under the Knife, but before that, the Complete Guide to Breast Cancer, and I think there might be another one in the offing. So it's going to be a great privilege. That'll be coming up in January, so look forward to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but if you're listening to it today, happy Christmas for next weekend.
Speaker 1:Well, that kind of puts a time stamp on this then doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Well, no, I'm just saying, it is nearly Christmas.
Speaker 1:Happy Christmas and have a lovely new year.
