Everything End of Life.
This podcast is dedicated to talking to experts and others about all aspects of death and dying. You know, that thing we don't really want to talk about!
As a hospice carer and former psychiatric nurse as well as writer and former Theatre director, I invite guests to talk about their roles in and what to expect in the last four weeks of life. What happens to the person dying, what help is there, what to do before and after the event.
Many of the families we go in to see have one thing in common and that is that they don't know what to expect. I thought that a Podcast may help and then discovered so much to explore that is of interest to people such as alternative funerals, what do Hospices actually do, what role do religions play?
So join me for the first interview as we begin this Podcast with Clinical Nurse Specialist Becky Rix where we grasp the nettle and discuss what happens to us generally in those last four weeks.
Time to explore "Everything End of Life".
Everything End of Life.
Father Rick Fernandez on the Catholic Perspective of End-of-Life Care
Ever wondered how Catholic priests approach end-of-life care? What role do they play, and how do they navigate it? Get ready for a captivating conversation with Father Rick Fernandez from St Teresa of Lisieux in Colchester. He'll be debunking common misconceptions and shedding light on the profound spiritual guidance that priests provide during these challenging times. From his unique journey as a missionary and a teacher to his current role as a priest, Father Rick's perspective on end-of-life care is not only enlightening but deeply moving.
This episode also takes a fascinating journey back in time, exploring the evolution of the sacrament of the sick, formerly known as extreme unction, in the Catholic Church. We'll explore the teachings of St. Francis of Assisi and the concept of "sister death". Father Rick will provide his valuable insights into death from a Catholic viewpoint, sharing how it is perceived as a natural transition and the significance of facilitating a peaceful and beautiful death. Then, we get real about funeral preferences and discuss the sensitive role of the church in comforting grieving families. Prepare to be deeply touched and enlightened by this rich exploration of the Catholic perspective on end-of-life care.
For those interested in what Palliative care looks like at home there is "The Last Kiss" (Not a Romance)
Available on Amazon now
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Kiss-Romance-Carers-Stories/dp/1919635289/ref=sr_1_1?crid=13D6YWONKR5YH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9._59mNNFoc-rROuWZnAQfsG0l3iseuQuK_gx-VxO_fe6DLJR8M0Az039lJk_HxFcW2o2HMhIH3r3PuD7Dj-D6KTwIHDMl2Q51FGLK8UFYOBwbRmrLMbpYoqOL6I5ruLukF1vq7umXueIASDS2pO91JktkZriJDJzgLfPv1ft5UtkdQxs9isRDmzAYzc5MKKztINcNGBq-GRWKxgvc_OV5iKKvpw0I5d7ZQMWuvGZODlY.fqQgWV-yBiNB5186RxkkWvQYBoEsDbyq-Hai3rU1cwg&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+last+kiss+not+a+romance&qid=1713902566&s=books&sprefix=The+Last+kiss+n%2Cstripbooks%2C107&sr=1-1
Hello and welcome to Everything. End of Life with me, jason Cottrell and guests. My guest this week is going to be Father Rick Fernandez from the Catholic Church in St Teresa of Lisieux in Stamway here in Colchester, and I've got Debbie with me to just talk about that. Because, debbs, I think that we have generally, if you're not a Catholic, you have a kind of quite skewed view of the Catholic priests, and they're all a Catholic priest, what do you think? A cliche sort of version.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. I think it's because if you're not Catholic that side of things can be quite mysterious. Yeah, perhaps you know a bit kind of scary maybe, this whole thing about the words that they say and redemption. And I remember going to a Catholic ceremony at Easter time in Germany and one of the things I remembered most was the priest was so angry. I mean it could have been passion, but it sounded like anger. It was German, so that's kind of what has always made me a bit wary, I guess, of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, on the other side I think we also have the icons like Father Ted Crilly, who's kind of very jokie priest, and Dave Allen, who really takes the rip out of a lot of Catholic churches and priests and that sort of thing. But I thought you know, but we know. I mean I was brought up a Catholic, although you know the Catholic priest that we had, he was quite old and a bit dodgery. Bless him. I think we had to wake him up at the Tabernacle one day.
Speaker 2:What's a Tabernacle?
Speaker 1:It's a box where they keep all the Catholic-y stuff, the wine, and you know so.
Speaker 2:But it's not wine, is it normally?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know, I don't look quite sure.
Speaker 2:Well, it's not in Church of England. It's not actually wine, it's sort of some watered-down variety. I feel we're straying off the point here All right, okay.
Speaker 1:So the point is, what do Catholic priests do for people, for their congregations, at the end of life and their end of life care? What are their roles and their duties and responsibilities? So I thought I'd ask one of our friends who is a Catholic to recommend the priest, and she recommended Father Rick and I'm very glad that she did, because he's given a brilliant interview and insights into the role of the Catholic priest at that time, so not just for the person, but for the families and for the friends and people who are living on their own, and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you said maybe I don't know, but he wasn't always a priest, was he? No, he wasn't always a priest.
Speaker 1:He was a teacher and he came to it a little bit later in life, which I think is good because it's given him life experience, and I think it's also good to remember that they do a huge amount.
Speaker 1:actually, in practical reality, all I saw from our priest was him coming out of the well somewhere in his robes. He'd do the mass and he'd pop back in again and we wouldn't see him for the rest of the week. But actually modern day Catholicism, I think modern day priests and probably priests through the ages, the good ones have always been there for their flock, their congregation, through marriage, birth, death, illness, and they're there supposed to help. And that really comes across with Father Rick. So I think should we just crack on with the interview?
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's have a listen, shall we?
Speaker 1:Okay, so this is Dr Father Rick on the role, duties and dilemmas of being a priest. Welcome to everything. End of Life, father Rick, and we're here to. Thank you, and this is the role of what your role as a priest, as a Catholic priest in End of Life, and what you do, how you look after people in that sort of respect. But before we get there, we did have a chat about your background and you didn't actually come straight into the priesthood, did you no? So tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 3:Well, I started my journey when I was 19 and I did missionary work in Central America for five years, but then to study for the priesthood and but also be a missionary, and then it wasn't the right time, so I came back to Los Angeles and then I was a teacher so and I taught there and then when I moved to England because of recession, time and all that, so I was teaching here as well, in England.
Speaker 1:So I was a teacher basically, for Was that teaching in a school or?
Speaker 3:Yeah, secondary school, mostly, yes. So I was a teacher for 15 years and then when I was here but I mean the vocational stuff never left. I was in the back of my head and I got a job in Catholic school and I got myself involved in Catholic chaplaincy and everything came back to me and then I thought, well, I need to investigate this, I need to be honest with myself. And when I was 39, I went to seminary in Rome Were you the oldest one there.
Speaker 3:No, no, because it is a specialized seminary for late vocations. So actually I was one of the youngest ones.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good.
Speaker 3:There were people in their 50s and actually 60s, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, widow-wheres and people who come into the vocation late. And then I was ordained at 45 and now it's been five years.
Speaker 1:Five years, and is it been five years in the same church?
Speaker 3:No, I was first in Dagenham, then in Baseldon, then now here in Lexington, in Colchester.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the name of the church just Centuries of Lysio.
Speaker 3:The current one yes.
Speaker 1:We have to pick that up, of course you know. Yes, no problem, it's going to be the best church, clearly, in Colchester, hasn't it, of course? Of course, all right. So we're here to talk about your role in when somebody dies Now if we, or on the journey to that, in fact, because you must come across people who have life-limiting illnesses. So they've had a diagnosis that they might have two or three years, or do you get that sort of thing?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, you have to make the distinction as something that is immediate and something that is long-term, because, basically, I'm here first of all to administer the sacrament of the sick, which is for everybody, and then there are structures to do with something that is a chronic illness, something that is a terminal illness. Some of it is a elderly or advanced age. So that's the first step in order to identify what to do next. So we do the sacrament, the anointing of the sick, that can be repeated as many times, and then, depending on the prognosis, so we work with that. Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's a now that I'm presuming you can go into people's homes. This is not done at the church, it depends, yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, if it is I've said, if it is something chronic, that somebody is battling an illness for a few years, but it may go either way, so they can either come here or I go to their home when it's actually end of life. So it is a shorter version. So it's usually in the hospital, hospice or any of those places, yeah, yeah. So the first introduction will be listening to what they have to say, and then the next action will be the sacrament of the sick, with whatever direction we need to work on, and then after that some pastoral care if it is a terminal illness.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're kind of guided by them and the series of events essentially yes, exactly yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, it's basically the prognosis what's going to happen, and then we go from there.
Speaker 1:So now then we get to. You mentioned something called extreme unction.
Speaker 3:Which is what I mentioned before. In the old times used to be called extreme unction. Yeah, that's why the elderly people from 70 or 80 and above they're afraid of being anointed, because that means the end. I mean, my grandmother was like that. She was like she never wanted to be anointed. But then the church changed the name into sacrament of the sick, which is what I mentioned before.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's the difference, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's the thing. It used to be the extreme unction and it used to be given at the end of life. But now the church in her wisdom, they change it to sacrament of the sick. So that's why it branches into the different areas of terminal illness, advanced age surgery, just a spiritual illness or a physical illness, or terminal? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or terminal.
Speaker 3:So that's what the extreme unction used to be, and now is more. How do you call it? It just encompasses more than what it used to be the sacraments for the living. Yes, exactly, and the sacraments are for the living.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, so that's understandable, but you come across all sorts of different situations, I have no doubt. So it can be quite tricky because I should imagine you have families where some are very devoted Catholics and some are very not devoted Catholics. Is that really difficult to navigate? Kind of coming towards the end of life, who wants what? Who wants you know?
Speaker 3:It is because I mean there's a generational anti-religious era or time, so it's children of parents who have died. They come and say well, my mom or my dad or a grand or somebody who was Catholic, so we want a Catholic funeral.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And then, but they have no clue because they haven't been in the church for I mean probably since their first Holy Communion.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of teaching them, I guess, about the whole narrative.
Speaker 3:Not even that, because they have no idea. I mean, it's one of those things that, oh, can we have over the rainbow as one of the hymns, or can we have one of the imagine from John Lennon and things like that. So we, yeah, it's kind of like a little bit of a catechises that we do at the time. But I mean, sometimes actually it helps after somebody passes and then you give you help them to have a good farewell and a good funeral. So sometimes people you know the children start to come back to church. But most of the time it's just like, you know, mom was Catholic, dad was Catholic, so let's just have a Catholic funeral and then that's it. That takes the box. Yeah, yeah, you do your job. I get a lot of calls like that to go on oh, my mom or my dad they're dying, so we need the priest to anoint him. And it's like, who are you? Yeah, and it's like, oh, yeah, we just well, just Google the nearest church and then you know so.
Speaker 1:So you get blue.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is a little bit difficult in that sense. As I said, it's the generation from those who were born in, like you know, 60s, 70s, 80s that have nothing to do with religion and then so it's very hard to do that. I mean, at least they're doing what they believe is the right thing for their parents and their relatives. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now I want to just move away from that for a second, just to talk about St Francis of Assisi, which has got a different name. Is it, Sister Death?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so can you just explain that a little bit to me. What's that all about?
Speaker 3:Well, St Francis of Assisi uses the term of sisterhood, or brotherhood, with all things in nature, all the things that God created it, and then one of the. So it's brother sun, sister moon, sister brother bird, brother dog or sister water. You know? So everything, yeah, so it's that idea that we are all one, the oneness with creation, and he was. He was into the ecological part of nature and creation, so that's why he's been used as a patron saint of ecological things nowadays.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's a really interesting thing, isn't it? Because even if you're not Catholic, I think probably everybody can get behind that idea, and it's an idea that seems being a modern thing, and actually it's been a reference that's been used, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, it's the beauty of creation. And then one of the things that because he, he, he felt that connection with everything. So he said, to death should be our sister, and then we are to welcome her when she comes for us, yeah, so is that idea that that shouldn't be scary, that she is our sister, yes, and then she's our relative, and then it will come for us and it will come for us, is that idea that it will take us in kindness. You know like a sister will do yeah. Or you know our relative is like do you want things to be peaceful and in good transition? So that's why that's the idea that he said just welcome sister death when she comes.
Speaker 1:Well, it's an interesting thing, isn't it? Because we, when we go into patients' homes, what we are aiming for is not just a good death, but a beautiful death, you know, and and you know, peaceful death, where they're not agitated and not anxious, and that's the whole aim that we, as carers and nurses, go for. I mean, it seems to be that's exactly the same thing that the Catholic priest is aiming to do, to facilitate, if you like.
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean, actually that's very Irish of you to say that a good death, because I learned about that that in Ireland. I don't know. Somebody told me in Ireland they ask it's like, oh, did they have a good death which meant, you know, the family were around and they went peacefully and things like that. So yeah, I mean it's that transitional thing because it is scary.
Speaker 3:One of the things that I, when I go to the hospital, I tell them is you know, talk to the person, play the favorite music in the background. It's like make things as comfortable as possible. Because I mean, you know that transition it could be a little scary if they're a little bit aware. Most of the time nowadays. It's like and you know better than me that you know that, as you said, doctors and nurses they try to make the person more comfortable, but it's still that scary moment. So it's the idea that silence, deafening silence, with people around them. It can be scary and it's also good for the family members because, you know, talking about things and remembering things, and so it helps with the healing process as well of grief and loss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now that's another whole area, isn't it? So let's go into that, because, oh right, let's say, somebody's had, they've died, you've had the funeral, and then what is your role after that?
Speaker 3:Well, it's one of those things that they're supposed to be, it's pastoral follow-up, but it's one of those things that is up to how much they want me to be involved, because, as I said, some of them is like we just want the funeral done and then you know, that's it. Some people is like, oh, father, you know, can we have a little bit of a talk or anything like that? And then we have the anniversaries that we celebrate in church. So each year, you know, on the same date, we say aloud in each Sunday Masses, in each of the Sunday Masses, their names. So it's like, you know, constant remembering of those who have passed from this life into the next. And then we have quite a few Masses for the dead and things like that throughout the year.
Speaker 3:So on the 28th of December, the Feast of the Holy Innocence, so we pray, we do a special Mass for all the children who have died, born or unborn. So it is one of those things we try to do as many things as possible, but on a personal, one-on-one or if they want any further contact with us. It depends on how much they want it. We cannot, you know, we offer it. It's like, if you need anything, please let us know. But you know, I mean if they're active.
Speaker 1:You're not there to impose the thing Exactly. We cannot do that.
Speaker 3:So if they're active members of the parish. So, yeah, we will have a conversation and I will ask how are they? And then we'll have a little chat. But if they're not active at all so I mean most of them they completely disappear. So I mean, and we can't, we cannot do anything, but, as I said, we do our things. We remember them in our Masses and on their anniversaries and in dates like that.
Speaker 1:Now I mean that's lovely. I think that it's really important for everybody still alive to be doing that, because it keeps the memories of people, doesn't it alive? Now, of course, there's always a sticky problem sometimes with some families I've seen imagine that you come across which is they might all want a different thing and for their relatives. So you may have somebody who absolutely didn't want to have a Catholic funeral, but all their relatives are Catholic and they want to have a Catholic funeral. I mean, how do you honestly navigate something like that? Or the other way around you know they might be devoted Catholic, but the other, the rest of the family, not so much, not bothered. I mean, that's a real tricky balancing act for you, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean, at the end of the day it's up to the family, it's up to what they want. I mean, if they want a Catholic funeral, they will approach the priests, but if they don't, they won't. I mean, I had a case with a really good parishioner, a lady. She's lovely, very devout Catholic, very involved in the parish, but her daughter was battling cancer for 16 years, on and off, you know, getting to remission, going back. So it's been a struggle. And then she completely rejected religion, and then her family as well. And then when she died recently they just like no, we don't have, we don't want any religious, because she didn't want it in religious. And then does it. And then the mum I mean she didn't have a say and you know. So what we did is like we did a mass for the mum separately, but the funeral was just non-religious.
Speaker 1:What a brilliant idea, though, so you're actually doing a mass for the mum. We sacrifice her needs really to extend Exactly, we just do that.
Speaker 3:But I mean it's not the proper funeral, it's not the same. No, and they had to go bless a landmark that they put somewhere in a garden or in a, and then the family said, no, they didn't want that, they didn't want it, they just didn't want it. I mean you can understand that, especially if it is a young mum leaving young children behind and everything and being angry or being sick for so long, and it's the unfairness and the injustice of God and everything. So you understand that. I mean, yeah, there's a certain element of anger and resentment towards God and you have to respect that. Yeah, you have to respect that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you can hear it in the background, it's like dogs the bar. Yeah, don't worry about that, no problem, okay, yes. Now that brings up another issue, doesn't it? It's of when somebody's told that they are terminal or they are coming to the end of life, that they may very well start to reject everything they believed in beforehand, or quite the opposite way around, clinging on to everything they didn't believe in beforehand. Do you see that a lot, that's a change.
Speaker 3:Well, it's mostly with younger ones. Yeah, it's either one or the other. I mean, I had an experience in one of my previous barricades in Dagenham that it was a lady who was just, she looked perfectly healthy and then also she was just diagnosed and she said you have six months, and then so it's one of those things that she grabbed onto faith. But it's just depending on the person. It's the trauma. I mean, it's a traumatic thing that you say you don't have life anymore, yeah, and then you're going to leave your family behind, especially if you're so it's a personal reaction. How will you react? Yeah, you know there's the psychology and emotions and spirituality. So it is. Yeah, it is a very delicate situation that they will just either reject or they will grab onto their faith.
Speaker 1:Well, that's pretty amazing, I've got to say. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, father Rick, and I think you've given us a really good overview of what it's like to be a Catholic priest in the modern day. Yes, and all the work that you do. So, yeah, I want to say a really big thank you, and I think you might help a few people.
Speaker 3:Okay, my pleasure. I mean it's one of those things, as they say, funerals and weddings, they bring the worst out of people, especially in families. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of infighting and inheritance on who gets what and who gets this, and what do we do, and then I'm more important, or I'm the eldest, or I'm in charge. It brings all those things. Those are the things that we have to as priests. We have to delicately kind of navigate. Navigate, because I mean, at the end of the day, people lash out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I had quite a few times that I didn't get. You know, like the funeral was, was programmed for two, three weeks or four weeks from the date that they died, or, and then they just lash out at me and say it's like, oh, you know, the priest doesn't care, he hasn't directed us, contacted us yet. I mean, we still have three weeks for the funeral and I'm not, yeah, so, so things like that. So we have to just be very mindful of how people are feeling and then just go go from there. But thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Oh no, and no, it's been an absolute pleasure, father Rick, and I will. I'll hope to see you again soon.
Speaker 3:Okay, thank you Thanks very much Hope to see the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know what that's a good.
Speaker 3:That's another kind of warm.
Speaker 1:Good try. I might very well go belong just for the fun of it.
Speaker 2:All right, okay, okay, see you later. Thanks very much, bye now Bye.
Speaker 1:What a great interview. So that's Father Rick walking alongside people through their lives. I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Amazing. I didn't realize that that he could offer so much support and reassurance to families going through that kind of experience.
Speaker 1:I know, and he had got so much to organize. It's unbelievable. You know, we think that the priest, just you know, does this thing automatically, but he's got to organize. I mean, I know he's got to organize for buildings and they've got all the volunteers to organize. It's going to organize his diary to make sure that he's got all his births and deaths and everything involved. Amazing, amazing stuff. Okay. So next up we have Jenny, who's a lady whose husband sadly committed suicide, and she's going to talk quite frankly and openly to us about that, and that's quite a tricky sort of subject.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's going to be a tough one, and I think what you probably should do is, before you publish that one is just let people know that for some people it could be a trigger and they might need to take some time out to kind of you know, I think we'll put that and some links as well for crews again and other help lines in in the description as well as everything else.
Speaker 1:Then in January I'll be interviewing Dr Liz O'Reardon. Do you know, Dr Liz?
Speaker 2:Only from what you kind of told me about her, but I'm really looking forward to this one. She seems such an inspiring woman and has been through a lot, I think, oh yeah, unbelievable.
Speaker 1:She's the breast cancer surgeon who herself was diagnosed with breast cancer and she's had a recurrence two or three times now. But she's done a vlog and she shows or talks about having breast cancer from the patient's point of view. So she's very personable and, you know, it's very emotive at times, but I'd like to talk to her about her rather than the breast cancer. So we're going to have that interview in January, so I'm really looking forward to that and that's about it. So, if you like, please do subscribe and share, because you know these things can help other people, not just us sitting here listening to us and us sitting here waffling on.
Speaker 2:Really, I don't waffle no.
Speaker 1:I'll cut you that, All right.
Speaker 3:I'll give you that.
Speaker 1:All right. So thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
